Why Clients Leave Accountants with Sam’s List Co-Founder Kimi Green

This week's episode of the Big 4 Transparency podcast is sponsored by Forwardly. Huge thank you to Forwardly for sponsoring the podcast, but also a huge thank you for what they do in terms of helping firms improve your operating margins. So if you are in firm operations, I would encourage you to take a look at how much your payment processing fees might be costing you currently. It may just be a couple percent here and there, but once your firm scales, we may be talking many tens or even maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars that are not going to your firm's bottom line and are not available for reinvestment in your firm. Forwardly helps you not only smooth all of these processes out with seamless AP and AR, but they also do so using ACH payments in an automated fashion, helping you save on payment processing fees. So make sure you check out forwardly.com for your business payment solution. Hello and welcome to the Big 4 Transparency podcast. I'm joined today by Kimmy Green, the co-founder of Sam's List. Welcome to the pod, Kimmy. Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure. I've been following the Sam's List journey for kind of as long as I can remember. My first million, Sam Parr of Sam's List is probably a big reason I got into entrepreneurship in the first place. I was really not surrounded by that growing up. And so I always had that kind of inkling and like an itch to do a little bit more, but it was really via podcasts that I kind of got the courage and it feels less crazy to make a jump like that when you're listening to a bunch of people talk about their journey. So cool full circle moment having you on with Sam's List here. I'm not Sam, but hopefully some of his influence may rub off on me for a good episode. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you're not Sam, but what you do is very interesting, right? And as a co-founder of it, I mean, I'm sure you've got a lot of insights for us all. So maybe to kick us off, like what is Sam's List and how did this kind of all start? Sam's List is a review based directory that helps people, primarily business owners, find accountants, bookkeepers, fractional CFOs, and financial advisors. So the genesis of Sam's List was Sam actually needed a CPA for his personal and business tax needs. And given that he has millions of followers, he posted on Twitter and LinkedIn that he was looking for a new CPA, and it just got hundreds of recommendations from people that were like, oh, I use this guy, I use this company, I use this person and this person. And it was in that moment where he was kind of like, I have this massive list now of reviews from real clients recommending someone just for me, like what can I do with this? And it turned into a review based directory. So something that's kind of interesting is, you know, when you're looking for the person who's going to manage everything about your money, you don't really find or see reviews about them. You're just kind of seeing like who appears on the first section of Google. And do they say the word like tax prep or bookkeeping, like the two main services that you're looking for. And so with the review aspect, that was what we really wanted to focus on is like, kind of like when you remember from college, when it was like rate my professor, when you were deciding what classes you were going to choose, you were trying to decide what classes you were going to take, but with who, and you were using the reviews as that driving force to determine who that professor was going to be. And so similarly, we were like, okay, let's use reviews as our leverage to people in this industry and help other people find CPAs. So that's how we started. We took that giant list of accountants that people were recommending for Sam. We cold called all of them, emailed all of them. And I wish we would have recorded that time because it was so funny getting these people on the phone. Some people were all for it. Some people absolutely hated it. For Sam specifically, a couple of them were like, am I getting, this is not Sam Park. Who is this? We were all calling these guys from our real cell phones. And so we'd get them on the phone and we were like, hey, someone's just recommended you. We would say their client's name. We're starting this directory called Sam's List to help people find accountants. If you want potential lead gen or just another place to have your website being talked about, you've already got a review. All we need is this, this, and this piece of information from you, and you're good to go. So we did that. And that's what kicked off the beginning of Sam's List. And then once we realized there's more than CPAs, I think that's probably the biggest misconception about accountants in general. Even through me explaining Sam's List, I've been alternating between saying accountant and CPA. The general person just looks at those two the same. And for the most part, they are. Every CPA is an accountant, but not every accountant is a CPA. Same could go for a bookkeeper. I would get inbound from people that were like, hey, I don't do taxes. I'm not a CPA, but I do bookkeeping or fractional CFO services. So eventually over time, we finally expanded Sam's List to be more than just CPAs and tax prep and included everyone in that space. But it's still fascinating just seeing that I can see it now. I still think the most common person might not recognize that there's a difference. That's a gap. But for the most part, looking at it from a holistic view, Sam's List is a review-based directory, helping primarily business owners find someone to do their taxes, ongoing accounting, fractional CFO, or financial advisors. Nice. I love that. It's a very cool inception story, right? And I find like, I mean, myself, my business was also sort of created off of a viral moment of like, oh my god, okay, now we got to do something with this. And it is true. Accounting is a very, very heavily referral-based business. Myself being a CPA, and I used to work in tax, but don't anymore. But I've referred very, very large amounts of work out to people's firms or I have some co-workers I used to work with who are out on their own now. People really need that element of trust because again, this is a person you're trusting with kind of everything that you've got, right? And I guess the same would go for financial advisors as well. You really need some reason to trust this person. And I find it's very much not like a Facebook ads-driven business. It's really a kind of relationship. So that makes a lot of sense to me. Oh yeah. I'm not going to call it a mistake, but most often than not, someone's just going to go to their best friend or family worker or co-worker and like, hey, who are you using for your taxes? Like, can you send me your person? They get the introduction. They sign with them within a week, just because they're from a trusted person in their network. That's who they go with. And for some people that may work tremendously. But what I've found, especially given my own experience is like, yes, that's cool and it's super simple, but you're not really doing yourself any favors. Like look at what other people are saying. We welcome all reviews. Like it's not just censored to the great, glorious, raving reviews. We have people who have left not so kind, but negative, but super honest reviews about someone. And I don't think that should be scored more heavily than a good one by any means. But I do just think being able to read the reviews from more people than your best friend or your sister-in-law or dad or something like that is way more valuable. And I think the accountants and financial advisors and fractional CFOs that take advantage of that are really going to see better impact and trust going into like those initial client calls that they have, or just like the client financial professional relationship that evolves over time. Yeah. And so for your own journey, like how did you find yourself involved in this? Because I feel like, you know, looking at your profile, like you have some kind of tangential-ish experience with the accounting world, but like not necessarily, you know, an accountant or someone like from that industry directly. So how did you get involved with Sam's List? Never in a million years did I think I'd be in this industry. I'm talking, if you were to go and meet with five professors I had in college, my family members, my closest friends, they will tell you that this is the last thing they ever thought that I would do. This is the last industry I would ever be in. I despised accounting. If you told me you were an accountant or you were in that field, I had no follow-up questions for you. I was like, all right, I do not really care about what you do anymore. Let's talk about something else. Common experience, yeah. Exactly. But I have always been adjacent to the field. Like I started off doing analytics. I was a data analyst for the majority of my beginning corporate world. Tried left corporate America, tried to franchise a croissant doughnut company. And that was honestly like my first kind of touch point more from only being in tech to just being within the field. So it was myself and the co-founder and, you know, when it comes, when you're having to look at like how much money you're making, how much money you're losing, you know, what's how much money are we throwing away with wasted food, like creating a P&L, all of that stuff. I was having to do it. I didn't know how to do it. So like I remember calling my friends, looking at YouTube videos, met with an accountant. I was like, hey, can you help us out with this? So that was the first time I had a closer relationship to this industry. But again, like not well, like I was just doing a poor man's version of accounting. Never did my own tax prep, used someone else for that. And then when I was working at a startup here in Atlanta for fractional real estate investing, same thing. I wasn't doing accounting, but through the analytical work that I was doing, I still had to be familiar with the numbers and like know what was going on from a reporting perspective. So it was never my strong point, but because I was still close to it, I could still see some stuff transparently that had absolutely, that didn't give me too much prep for Sam's list. So that's how I started it. This has been the most involved. I feel like I'm getting my MBA in accounting because every time I meet with an accountant, I'm just learning something new. So transparently, like genuinely started from the ground up with just understanding this industry. I still wouldn't say my own poor man's version of accounting and bookkeeping is great. Like when I tell an accountant in my setup, they're like, maybe do this instead or like, that's wrong. You don't need to be doing that. So it's so cool, but like now I know, I know way more of what I should be doing and like how to prepare for how to not burn my money and stuff like that because of the conversations that I have. So yeah, my background had absolutely no connection to what I'm doing now. But if anything, it was just because I was exposed to a lot of different industries and I had different roles with like being a data analyst and then doing partnership stuff for marketing and then some investor relations and some side projects. Like I was used to being exposed into areas that like I didn't go to school for, right? Like I just always wanted to do something entrepreneurial. And even in like my typical W2 jobs, I was always looking to do a little bit more. So I think just having a familiarity with just like stretching myself and my own capabilities, although it's intimidating, I was fine just like telling accountants, hey, I'm not from your world, but like I have this website and if you're open to just like helping us out sharing feedback, that would mean the world to me. And that's what's been happening. Yeah. And so did you like reach out to Sam like when this whole thing on Twitter was happening and just said like, hey, I want to build this into a website or like what like how did that come to be? All Sam's idea. Sam is the is the creator behind it. And funny enough, if you go back, like, I don't even know the years, but if you go back like five years, there's a podcast episode somewhere, Sam was talking to someone on My First Million and he was like, yeah, I think it'd be so cool to have a directory helping people like find accountants or like marketing agencies and stuff like that. And so it's cool to see like he actually had that idea years ago, but it wasn't until he actually needed that CPA that kind of kickstarted this. And then the way I got connected to him was, I don't know, maybe three years ago, I had reached out to him to be his part time researcher for MFM because... Oh, I saw that thing go out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. So, okay, yeah, I'll go back to that. But he posted about it, I think for the first time three years ago, he's like, hey, I need someone who can spend like a couple hours, no more than like five hours a week helping me research and talk about interesting like people and business ideas for MFM if you think you're a good fit, like submit this one pager Google Doc, and I'll look at it. And I got like hundreds of replies. I didn't think anything of it. In my head, I was just like, this will be great side money. At the time I was trying to get my I was looking to pursue my MBA. That's always been a goal of mine to get my MBA. I can say that that goal has been vanished ever since I started a company, I don't think I need to anymore. But it's just something I had always aspired to do. So in the back of my head, I was looking at being his part time researcher as honestly, just like a resume pad outside of my job. And I do have, I'm not gonna say chronically online, but like, I've always had a Twitter, social media, I meet really cool people through weird things that I'll do. And so I applied got through the last round with me and two other people never got it. And it was a super simple process like him and I never talked. He didn't know anything about me or my background, anything like that. But it was just through that very brief interaction of emailing him those one pagers that when he got the idea for Sam's list, he just reached out to me cold and was like, Hey, I have this business idea. And then he sent me a link to the landing page that he had just whipped up of Sam's list. And we got on FaceTime with me, him and Joe. Joe is our other co founder and Sam and Joe start every business together. They gave like, kind of the high level of just like, this is the concept of it. No idea where it's going to go. If you want to be a part of it. Great. If you don't, no worries at all. But let's just see if there's an appetite for something like this. And if so, like, you're with us on this journey. That's really cool. I love that. And you just kind of opened yourself up to opportunities just got yourself out there. And I mean, I would say it's paid off, like Sam's list seems like it's doing pretty well. And what's like the business model, like from a monetization perspective, like for firms who work with Sam's list, I assume it's probably free for the search of looking for an accountant and then the accounting firms pay for kind of like deal flow through you or what does that normally look like? Yeah. So if you want to know probably like how to make the least amount of money possible, like listen to this podcast episode. So yeah, people who are looking and browsing on Sam's list, it's no cost to them. For the people joining Sam's list, it's no cost to them. But we have this select pool of people that have paid us a flat rate upfront for 20 leads over time. So if someone takes our quiz, they're answering questions about what they're looking for, what industry they're in, how much money they're making, the services they're looking for. That lead gets sent to up to three firms max at a time. Those firms get to review the lead, determine whether or not they fit their ICP, they can help them out if they want to meet with them. If they do, an email goes out between both parties introducing them to one another. And so those are the people who have paid us a flat rate upfront for a set amount of leads. That's been the primary way that we've been making money. We don't do rev share or anything like that. We don't charge per meetings, but it's just a flat fee upfront. And then as of about a month ago, we recently rolled out a two-tiered subscription model so you can pay $150 a month or $600 a month. And they each have their different benefits and perks of being on the site. We're basically just trying to help firms get seen more in the eyes of their ICP. And so the way that we've done that is we've created like hundreds of pages for an SEO but also helping the firm stand out. Because the number one question I get, not kidding, I maybe get five emails a day about this. It's like, how can I stand out on your site more? People want to individually advertise, like we're not going to do that, it doesn't make any sense to just have one firm being blasted as an ad everywhere. So what we've done is just made a ton of pages that are like accountants for divorced women or accountants for tech employees, VC startups, stuff like that. Those are behind a paywall, but you can still be on our primary directory of all accounting firms or fractional CFOs or financial advisors for free. And some people have been on Sam's list and have generated anywhere from like 10K in new client revenue from signing one to two clients or 100K in new revenue from signing a ton of clients and just having a bunch of client reviews so they're listed higher on our site. And so it's kind of cool to see that whether or not you pay or not, you can still potentially benefit. But because I can't guarantee you'll have any new clients signed from that, that's why I think it doesn't make sense to charge everyone to be on the platform, like just keep it for free. And some of the people who have been on there for free are like really big supporters and super kind to me and supportive of Sam's list. And I'd rather have that than someone who just looks at me as someone they can pay for new business, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, you're talking to the right person on, you know, a probably under-monetized business that gives a lot of stuff away for free. Because again, like, you know, I need accountants to use my website and I need people to want to come here and that's where all the values derive from. But like ultimately the vast majority of people coming to the site are not necessarily like monetized in any kind of way, but it does create like very sticky businesses and where like you can kind of, you know, you can, you can build a very loyal following who relies on you for this type of stuff and then figure that out on the other side. Like it's always good to have people who are bought in and really benefiting from your service. So that's, uh, that's great. I actually have a couple of people I know that I've like seen on there, I think as probably like preferred partners or like who have done a lot of business on Sam's list, uh, when I was taking a look through the website, uh, well, I, I saw apple tree, um, apple tree growth with Patrick Dichter, who's been on here, had quite a few. And then there was someone else that I had done a lot of work with that I, I forget. I'm kind of blanking on, but there was someone else that I was like, Oh damn, like I see they've like done a lot on here as well, which is cool. So I love it. I get notified every single time. Like client reviews are so pivotal, pivotal, like on Sam's list, truly like it just fires me up because I get a notification every time someone leaves a review and I know what goes into people having to ask for a review. Like it's not comfortable, right? Like it's, I know they're not comfortable doing that. And then from their client's perspective, I know, you know, they're like, Oh, another thing I need to do right now, I'm working already on my own stuff. Now I got to do this stuff for this, for this guy that does my taxes or bookkeeping. So I know the work that goes all into that. So just when I, when I see that someone did it, it just makes me so happy. Like, yes, we're getting closer and closer, you know, we don't have millions of reviews on Sam's list, but I would love to get that. Like it's got to start somewhere. So yeah, I really appreciate that when people actually get clients to leave a review or if someone does it on their own, you know, like you can write a review on Sam's list if someone's not on Sam's list, people don't recognize that. So it's probably on me for not talking about that more or like posting about that more, but you can write a review for someone that's on Sam's list for an accountant that you love or hate. If you just want to say how your experience went and it just pays it forward. Yeah. So, you know, you mentioned you don't have millions of reviews, but you probably do have more than pretty much anyone else on accountants. What are some of the common threads you can kind of pull on for, you know, complaints about people's accountants where they're going out and searching for more? The number one complaint that people have about their accountants is how proactive they are. It's their accountant has abandoned them. They're not responding. From what I can tell, it doesn't seem like it's just like 24 hours. It seems like it must be like anywhere ranging from a few days to a couple of weeks. That shocked me. I've personally never had that problem. Like even though I just let go of my accountant so I can find someone on Sam's list, my guy was responding within like a couple of hours. Like this guy was fast. So, the number one complaint that people have about their accountants is just that they are super slow. I would say the second one is probably their situation has become more complex and they realize that they need someone who is not on their way out of retirement and who may not be familiar with like an up and scaling e-commerce company or someone with a ton of K1s. Complexity is definitely the second most common of just like wanting someone more familiar and working with someone just like them. This one isn't specific. This one isn't like a common thread that people are looking for. But industry experience, I think some people don't realize how important that is. I can't give them advice and I don't ever like persuade them one way or another. But I think for people looking for accountants or accountants themselves, if they can like precisely say who they work with and the user can recognize that working with someone specific to you and your needs, not just the services, but the actual industry like is an absolute game changer. Yeah, that's a big thing we talk about on here is like, especially for some of the smaller practices and, you know, I'm qualifying smaller by like still relatively large, but maybe like 100 employees or less. Like if you want to be able to compete with any of the big players, like your superpower is going to be focused and you need to choose a niche, like go deep on that because you can then provide the same or better quality of service for probably a lower kind of billable hour rate and you can really stand out. Whereas the all, you know, the extreme kind of generalists, it's hard to compete. Right. With these kind of big, big players who have all these resources and probably have industry groups and things like that. So focusing in is super important. I would also say. One thing that I think has been interesting to see. Is the expectations. So I've had people come to me as well. Not necessarily. They'll just find my email and they're like, hey, I've been using insert company name and I don't believe I've, you know, basically they dropped the ball one way or another. And what I've realized is when some when a client says that an accountant has, quote unquote, dropped the ball, it's because there was not enough information shared or clarification set up front during those prospect calls. Like, yes, you already have someone in your pipeline if they've reached out to you and they need help. But if you don't explicitly state like what package package they're buying into or like what they can expect, like don't be vague, just like spell it out. Tax planning is different from tax prep and tax prep and tax planning. Like people don't know that the bookkeeping and the cleanup like make that super clear. That is the most common cold inbound I'll get from people who have who are just frustrated with their accountant, like where they mess up. And so to me that I've gone through the accountant search and I can tell you like if you're not asking the specific questions like, hey, if I opt into this package of yours or like this service of yours, what am I getting and what am I not getting? This is my situation. Like this is what it could look like in X amount of years. How is that going to differ from on this plane or this plan? Like set those expectations. Otherwise, you're going to get like a really frustrated client for either no reason at all or pretty good value. But being clear up front will just help everyone's experience way better. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. And then in terms of like, you know, five star reviews, I'm over the moon. Everyone needs to be working with this person. Is there are there a couple commonalities in in what really make people happy as well? Quick to respond. Um, it's a good question. It's so fascinating. And this goes for accountants and financial advisors specifically. Rarely are they really saying. paying like anything about their financial situation, it's just like a comfort thing of how they made them feel. Sometimes they'll be, it's rare. I'll have a couple. It's usually if I'm hearing about a specific client story of like, oh yeah, they were trying to do a fundraise and they were valued at this, but then this guy came in and tripled our valuation overnight because he recognized that like we were misreporting revenue or like he found all these expenses that weren't getting accounted for, stuff like that. But specifically for the reviews, it's all about like how they felt. Like I came to them in this situation. They made me and my family like way more aligned on what we want financially, made us feel way more comfortable of, you know, going into the next year for tax season, stuff like that. It was more feelings based than I would have expected. Then of course I'd say maybe like 30, 35% of the other people are like, he's been so great. Oh, I don't know if I should say he, but whatever. This accounting firm really turned around our business, which is like proper reporting. You know, I got 30% of my time back. I would say that's the biggest one for entrepreneurs is just getting time back and finally relieving yourself from having to wear the marketing hat, the accounting hat, the founder hat, the ops hat, every hat that exists. Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that definitely rings true to me. And again, like part of, part of the difficulty in the accounting industry for a lot of places is they're very like talent constrained which I mean, shameless plug, but I help on that front a little bit, but talent constrained. And so that kind of falls into, yeah, the responsiveness, the ability to take the time or the ability to even spend time with the client to like make them that comfortable. Right. Like that's where a lot of this lies. So no, it's, it's really cool hearing like this outside kind of different perspective of like what really matters to these people because as accountants were like, oh yeah, you know, they're always complaining about this, but they're just being so unreasonable, whatever. But like at the end of the day, getting like a voice of, of the end user of the accounting service in this, I think is like really valuable for people to hear. So I really appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. So it's, it's super interesting getting that like feedback directly from the client. And then maybe a little bit more into the analytics of it, but are a lot of people geographically bound when they're looking for help? Like you hear a lot about like the kind of old school client who like really like values having this like brick and mortar office, but now there's a lot more emergence of like cloud accounting and things like that. So when the requests come through, do you have like a rough percentage of people who want someone like in their city? Oh man, I frigging love this topic. So shockingly, maybe not shockingly, but like the people looking for someone in person or a hybrid relationship is between is around 15%. So it's not crazy high, but if you mix in hybrid, I would say that number goes up to like 20, 25%. And I would say probably for 99% of that pool, it's just because they have no idea that a remote virtual accountant can work out for them just as well as someone in person. I ran into this myself when I was looking for an accountant. I immediately looked within Atlanta because that's where I lived. I imagined myself just having like the super close tight relationship with my accountant. I was going into his office, sitting in there like he was my therapist and just like telling him everything about my situation, all the questions I had. No, that's not real. That is just like so old school behavior, I guess, because our parents and grandparents would go to their accountant's offices and that's just what we assumed when it was time for us to do that. Now things have moved on, technology has evolved and it's way more beneficial to you to find like a specialist and someone in your backyard because you could be limiting yourself to someone who's the best for you if you're just looking within a five-mile radius. So it's about 20% of people that are looking for in-person or hybrid and then the rest typically are open to virtual and remote. However, the ones looking in person, if they say they want in-person specifically, I always reach out to them and I'm like, hey, you're located in Indiana. I do not know anyone on Sam's List based in Indiana that is doing in-person calls. I also don't even know the exact address that they live at. So I don't even know how big Indy is. So even if y'all were in the same area, is it worth a five-hour drive? Is it worth a one-hour drive? I don't know. And so I'll always follow up with them. I'm like, okay, but I can see that you're in the construction business. So if you want an accountant that works with construction businesses, probably has a client in Indiana, as well as other states in America, would love to introduce you to them if you're open for it. Almost always they'll say yes. I can tell you probably out of 4,000 leads that we've gotten, two have said no. And it's funny because if they do say no, I'm like, all right, no worries. This is not financial advice, but go to this page on Sam's List that is accountants for construction companies or accountants for e-commerce businesses and just reach out to one if you want and just hear how the conversations go with the generalist one that you found in your neighborhood and the one on Sam's List that is specified. Because you'll probably be able to spot the difference. And I can confidently say that after meeting with over 300 accountants, there is a difference between what the ones who are specialized will say to you and ask you versus the general who's just like, oh yeah, we can do it. Yeah. Or I can find that out. There is a difference. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, good takeaway for people listening. You may need to communicate that better in your marketing advertising. If you are a strongly niched firm, you should absolutely be communicating that value to people who are not in your geographic region and making it clear to them that yeah, the level of service you can provide even not in person will probably far exceed the local tax preparer or whatever that might be, right? I can tell you as well. I don't know what your audience is for non-accountants, but don't hold me to it. This is just what I've heard. I'm the messenger. I know of accountants who fly to their clients. So if you're a good client and this accountant likes you or wants to help you or just sees those in-person calls as something that would keep the relationship pure, that could happen for you. It might not. If you just have a very simple situation, maybe not, but I know many accountants who have flown out to see their clients because it's worth it for them. It's just a good relationship and it works. It's not for everyone, but it could happen. So again, don't limit yourself to someone remote. Maybe once a year you see your accountant in person, maybe you'll become buddies or something like that. You never know what could happen, but I do think that's kind of a cool thing. If your accountant likes you good enough, maybe they'll fly out to see you. Yeah. And don't get insulted if they don't. But yeah, a lot of the very modern plugged in accountants are traveling quite a bit too. I'm not running a practice, but I'm presenting at these conferences now and I was just in San Diego. I was just in Denver. I'm going to Chicago soon. And a lot of these firm owners who are the ones that are very hungry to kind of grow their practice and figure things out are going to these same conferences, right? And a lot of them I hear like, oh yeah, I've added three days on the backend and I'm going to go see clients X, Y, and Z while I'm there, which is again, particularly if you're in a bigger city, but like, yeah, it doesn't mean you're never going to meet this person either. Right. Exactly. Are there any trends that you've observed in terms of like demand for like service lines or like industries that are really blowing up if, you know, if anyone's listening and looking to add kind of like a more specific niche or anything like that, are there any like emerging trends in the requests? Well, as you could probably guess, tax services is the number one that most people are looking for. What's interesting with that is again, I don't think the most common person knows that when you're looking for an accountant, you just think taxes and you're not really thinking all the time about bookkeeping or advisory or fractional CFO services. So many times people will say that they are just looking for a CPA to do their taxes. And then when they're getting on these calls, they'll often find out like more details about the other offerings and then that gets stacked on as well. So it's an educational thing of just like, it starts with the tax, but then many times when I'm reaching out to the accountants and the leads from Sam's List, I ask for follow-ups like how did it go? It's like, oh yeah, well, they were looking on Sam's List for tax services, but then they ended up coming an ongoing accounting service client of theirs. But across the board, 60% of Sam's List leads are looking for someone for tax services for both personal and business needs. I would also add people between the $100,000 and $500,000 range with income or business revenue are the most common to seek help, but I know that's an accountant's nightmare. And I can say that because I've met with all of you guys and I know you don't want to work with people under half a million, but those are the ones who are really looking for help because they're in this new spot where they're making some money that's pretty good. Like you might not be month to month anymore, like you can have more leisure spend, stuff like that. And you want someone you can ask questions to when it comes to buying your first house, starting a family, sending kids to college and buying their cars, all of that stuff. Those are the ones who are really, really looking for help. Then once you're hitting over a million dollars, I'll say those are the businesses are more open to doing the ongoing accounting services, but even those guys, they don't recognize the value add that an accounting firm can be to them if they outsource that entire department or they have like a senior director of accounting on their internal team or maybe even a CFO or something and like they're the ones coordinating with the accounting firm doing everything for them. I would say they're the ones more open to it or like can see, oh, I can pay these guys a couple thousand bucks, a couple thousand dollars a month versus hiring three more accountants to my team internally to do all those services. Yeah, absolutely, without a doubt. So tech services and then the services changing over time as they learn more. And then tech is the biggest industry. Real estate is a huge industry. People in real estate are the most forgotten group of people in the world. Accountants don't like touching it. I don't blame them. Like it's super complicated. And for the longest time we did not, we might have one firm now that can handle people in real estate, whether it's investments or it's an actual real estate company. People don't touch that. And so I feel so bad for that group of people because I want Sam's List to be a very simple, easy solution for them and they can have many options to choose from. But right now it is pretty bare. So if there are any accounts in the real estate space that can work with investors or businesses, like Kimmy at samslist.co is my email. I want to meet you. Absolutely are. We'll talk a little bit offline, but the main backer of Big Four Transparency is a very fast growing real estate accounting firm. Really? Very, very like good with clients and yeah, so we'll talk a little bit more about that online. Yeah, real estate and that's, that's, I love to be of a real estate construction or in the top five and then, um, me, uh, marketing and advertising as well is another big one. Um, those are the three tech real estate construction and advertise, uh, yeah, marketing, advertising, which is like that umbrella. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, very good to know. And again, like if you're planning like a focus area, yeah, go ahead. I'll add one more solopreneurs. It's not an industry, but a segment of people. Solopreneurs is overwhelmingly a huge, huge, huge pool of people on our platform as well. I would say 50% of them, 60% of them are under half a million. The others are above, but that pool, they are always looking for help. We actually do have people on Sam's list that are exclusively work with solopreneurs, but that is a group of people that we get inbound from every single week looking for help. Okay. Good to know. Well, if you match any of those descriptions, definitely go check out Sam's list. Uh, you may want to sign up for some lead flow through them. But even if you don't match that description, this is definitely a very good place to generate leads for your business. You know, get a little bit more visibility. I love what you guys are doing over at Sam's list. What's the best place to reach you or sign up for the accounting audience? If you want to sign up, samslist.co is our website. In the top right corner, we have a button that says join, and that's where just filling out our submission form, answering questions. Please be transparent. We are a transparent platform where we're going to make you share the absolute minimum income you work with, revenue, capital raised, or if you're a financial advisor, investable assets. Please, please, please include a minimum so that someone with 50K is not reaching out to you if you don't work with people under half a million typically. We make you share your rates, both the minimum and maximum, and the type of person and business that you work with. You got to spell all of that out. Ideally, someone can figure out if they're a good fit for you in 10 seconds of viewing your page on Sam's list. That's our goal. But that's how you sign up. There's a bit of a waiting period because I personally review every submission that we get. I just want to make sure that one, if you say you're a CPA, you've got the credentials and I can verify it, your website is real, you haven't murdered anyone, and you seem like a good person, then I'll review, approve your page if it looks like a good fit. It shouldn't take you more than two minutes, but I'd really emphasize getting client reviews. That is first and foremost how we want people to leverage our platform. And then in turn, hopefully we can give you some really, really good value add by sending some leads your way, either for free, someone finds you organically, or you become one of our subscription customers or lead customers and you just knock it out of the park. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to me. I really appreciate it. You bet. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me.