Mastering Resource Management with Andrea Davis

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Big Four Transparency podcast. I'm joined today by Andrea Davis, a former director of resource management at BiggerTillyUS and most recently the founder of Linked Workforce. Welcome to the podcast, Andrea. Thanks, Dominic. I appreciate you having me on. Yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited to have you on. You're actually one of the first people that I talked about planning this podcast with and you were very encouraging about that. So a bit of a full circle moment now that I'm having you on. So as a bit of an intro, you've occupied some very impressive leadership roles in workforce planning and resource management, both at Deloitte and BiggerTilly. Are you able to share a little bit more about what those roles entail? Because as someone kind of more in the traditional like tax or audit streams, I don't really understand thoroughly what it is that's going on kind of behind those doors. Absolutely. Well, first, congratulations on starting because I think this is fantastic and who better to do a podcast like this than you. So huge congrats to you. Thank you. Absolutely. So yeah, resource management for me was foreign before I started at Deloitte as well. So I did not know what that was. My background is in the HR space. But prior to coming, going to Deloitte, I went to Deloitte and I was doing a combination role of HR and resource management. We went through a talent transformation and then I split off and focused in on resource management. But for those who are not familiar, the goal of resource management for professional services firms is really to allocate the right resources at the right time using their skill set, credentials, experience to make sure that they're aligned to client expectations and really to elevate that client experience. But also on the employee experience side, making sure that they're aligned appropriately where they feel comfortable and excited about the work they're delivering to clients. Okay. And what are you like, what are you using to measure that essentially, like to understand like how employees are feeling like what are the tools you're typically using for that? Yeah, that's a great question. And there's a lot of there's a lot of different ways this can be done. I think resource management, why I love it so much is it's not a one size fits all. It can meet you where you are, whatever, wherever that firm, wherever the firm is. But I think there's a couple things. You can blend it with your performance management process and, you know, thinking about skill sets where people want to elevate their careers or eventually get in their career. So partnering there, partnering with the learning and development team. So if you have skills mapped out and truly understand, understand the skills of the employees, you know, where could you support them from a learning and development perspective where they have opportunities that they don't have to go seek and hunt for, but they actually have a database where that lines up with their career aspirations. And then, you know, client satisfaction. I mean, to be quite honest, happy employees deliver, you know, provide happy client service and there's a there's a positive outcome on the client side. So even weaving it in from a KPI perspective to client success, I think all of those measurements are really important and tie back to productive and efficient and effective resource management. Awesome. I mean, thanks for sharing. I would have never known that. And then. So for someone in your position, obviously, like we read a lot in the news kind of about our own jobs, right, where like major accounting firms are talking a lot about the talent shortage and like all of the issues that that entails for the firms. What are the conversations like within your team regarding those things? Sure. Same type of conversations, because the talent shortage definitely impacts the resource management team, because that's what we do is to take those resources and make sure that we're aligning them appropriately. And I think it's just time to get creative. You know, I think we've come from a long history in the accounting space and professional services space overall where, you know, one person leaves, another person in. It's not it's just that, you know, kind of more of like the sausage making factory where I think there's it's time to pivot and understand that there's so many different type of work or talent models out there now that just because one person leaves who is an FTE does not necessarily mean that it makes sense to replace that person with another FTE. You know, there's so many different models to tap on in the gig marketplace, seasonal workforce, consultants. You know, there is a lot of different talent models out there that I think if you're strategic, not only is are you impacting your employees that are still there that did not leave and making sure that they still have a positive experience and feel supportive, but you're also tapping into a market that has not historically been tapped on to that has some really, really great talent. So I think the talent shortage, lots to dig into there and there. But I would say the variation of talent models, near shore, offshore. And like I said, you know, seasonal consultants, there's so many different opportunities that I think looking beyond just the FTE or is also called full time equivalent replacement is super important. So like this might be actually kind of driving further the move towards offshoring, I guess. Right. Which makes sense, right? If you're in. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a healthy mix, I would say. And I would also I still throw in those those gig market folks. There's so many people who may be left the either through force during layoff processes or through, you know, after COVID just being exhausted and left the workforce. But they want some type of opportunities and looking for shorter term opportunities that they would be great folks to tap into. Do you have any like rough sense of like, what percentage of labor that has kind of started as and what it makes up now, like even just to contextualize that? From a gig marketplace perspective or from a offshoring or just in totality? Yeah, maybe from a gig marketplace perspective. I feel like that's not documented as much. I've heard a ton of conversation about the offshoring, but I haven't actually heard anyone really talk that much about the the gig marketplace. Yeah. So there's a lot of great research out there. I don't have concrete numbers to share, but I definitely that's something I can totally dig into. But I would say there was a large, especially women who left left their jobs, whatever level that they may have been in during COVID and after COVID for whatever reason. And so that what we're seeing, I've read a couple of studies on a lot of those women are either not looking to go back into a full time equivalent role, but are looking to do something to continue to expound on their career. And I feel like those are those projects that these are super valuable folks. And it's not just women. I just know that was a large population, but great, I mean, such valuable individuals that could really bring and, you know, in some instances, elevate your team. So supporting what they're looking to do, but also really bringing some some true value to the team as well. Yeah, that's that's fantastic to hear, because honestly, I think that that answers an issue that's kind of on both sides a little bit better than some of the offshoring does, based on what I've heard from a lot of folks where, yeah, a lot of the frustration is the surge in busy season and stuff like that, where a lot of the smaller firm owners have spoken to say, you know, we've dealt with this by automatically filing extensions, having a higher percentage of like actual accounting work, but of bookkeeping and financial statement work. But once you get into those large, large firms, yeah, like the Baker Tillys and the Deloittes, like I guess what, if you're the tax department, you're going to have just the amount of tax work to get through. So I think that addresses that issue where you have this kind of like seasonal workforce potentially. And then on the flip side, like I could see it for someone who maybe can't quite financially leave the workforce, but is inclined to do so. And then this can kind of like bridge a little bit of a gap for them, right? Like, even potentially, like someone in my shoes who's got a project that they're really focused on, but like, it's not quite at a point where like, that's your full time income. So I mean, that's awesome to hear that that's growing more and more, right? Even within kind of the more traditional firm space, not just as a, you know, like you hear a lot of people doing turbo tax preparer work seasonally, but it's cool to hear that there's room for them at the traditional firms as well. Yeah, and I will, just from awareness perspective, I know all of the big four, and I'm sure a lot of the mid market firms as well have this, they have a portals for temporary talent or gig workers. So definitely, if there is anyone looking for that, they're, they're, they're out there. And you can just in a quick Google search, and just sign up. Awesome. Well, yeah, if there's anyone listening, who's interested, make sure you go check those out. So shifting gears a little bit beyond the kind of like talent pipeline discussions that I'm sure everyone's had enough of, what are some of the other biggest concerns being discussed at the firms you've been at? Like and what and what's being done to address them? Yeah, I think certainly, we're hearing the decline in the accounting profession as a whole. I mean, that is just I mean, it's the elephant in the room that is truly it's concerning because it definitely it's something that's needed. I mean, it's a organ, you know, it's a industry that thrive during downtimes, because everyone still needs accounting, no matter what time we're in. And so I think we have to really think differently. And I think what I'm hearing a lot from different organizations I've been a part of is, you know, a lot about the 150, a lot about the schooling or what's required to obtain your CPA, time to take your exams, those type of things, which I think certainly need to be discussed. They're important. However, I don't think that's the barrier to entry. There's a lot of smart folks out there who are willing to do the work to pass exams. I think we have to think differently about the industry as a whole. What folks are not willing to do our work 80 hour weeks any longer, or kind of the hustle to prove yourself, you know, you come in as an intern, and you do the grunt work to make sure that, you know, you can prove yourself to be a partner and maybe 20 years down the road in your career. That's just not what people want any longer. And so I think now it's time for the accounting firms to take a step back and reevaluate what success looks like and how you obtain success and what that entry level. So switching from a hustle, kind of prove yourself culture to a learning culture, to bring people in to learn and teach and develop right out of the gate to create a better balance. And then I think couple that with the multiple talent models that we just talked about, and you can create a more harmonious work environment. And I think that is what we need to focus on. But that requires a lot of proactiveness from organizations and firms and being thoughtful and planning that traditionally has just not been the focus. But I certainly think there's a loud cry for that now. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think like the the old incentive, and just like extreme example of like delayed gratification, yeah, maybe just doesn't cut it anymore, right? Like, there's no paying your dues for 15 years anymore. Because as of year two, you might have exit opportunities for 40% increase. And you say, ah, no, do I really need this? And I think people also are less driven by the need, like, I think a lot more people are kind of realizing like, I want to live my life, ASAP, with like a reasonable salary, rather than be like, I'll sacrifice for 20 years and make $1 million a year. I think both like the the financial incentive of that, like extreme upside, I think, drives people a little bit less than it once did. And then at the same time, the patience is just maybe not what it was, right. You know, I include myself in that, right? Like, I think for me, like, I was just like, there's no way that I'm just going to be significantly underpaid for the next five years. And then maybe it'll be worthwhile, but maybe I won't even want to do it by then. So why wait? So I mean, it's good to know that people in these positions, like you've you've been somewhere where you can actually drive a real change in these very large firms are having these discussions, right? Because I think a lot of people think it's just totally falling on deaf ears, and people are maybe not focused in the right place. But it is it is good to know that these discussions are happening. Yeah. And the one thing I'll throw in there, too, that you just reminded me of is wanting to make an impact as well, like, you don't want to know what they're, they're, they're driving value, how they're driving value. So if there's not a connection with the mission or connection with what their work is impacting, I think it, it creates boredom, it creates, there's no gratification there of like, my impact that I'm making on a day to day basis. And then I'm working all these hours. So, you know, there, there is something to say for COVID. I mean, let's just be honest, COVID made a lot of people rethink, you lost loved ones, there was a lot of things that happened during the COVID time that made you rethink how you want to live your life. And, you know, for whatever that means for each individual, it does mean something. And I think we can't forget that that was a pivotal time in the world. And it's still, it's going to be here, it's not going to go away in a couple years, it's going to always be here. Yeah, do you think that that was really like, a switch that flipped? Because part of it, like people like to say, like, oh, this new generation, right? But do you think that also yeah, like that switch of like, having gone through that really changed people's perceptions kind of in a relatively drastic way all at once? I do. I think yes, there's generational differences. There's a lot. I think there's five generations right now working in the workforce together. So certainly there's generational differences. Absolutely. But I also think COVID had a major impact. And I think it's sometimes under appreciated for the impact that it had on the workforce. People are still dealing with the outputs of COVID. And you know, the impacts to their lives, really, whether that's return to work, or return to office mandates, whether that's a change in their work environment, layoffs, there's a lot of impacts and downward stream impacts that happen there, even being able, you know, if you have children, or you're a caretaker, even being able to find care is still a difficult process for a lot of a lot of folks. So I do think it was a switch of a truly turning point in how the world operates, and especially in the business world and business community. Interesting, that's not like a perspective that I had, actually, like, that's, that's interesting to hear that I'd be inclined to agree with what you're saying. I think that makes a lot of sense. And so you mentioning some of these challenges and some of the discussions having being had, do you think that firms are spending kind of enough time and also maybe resources thinking about these challenges? Or do you think that it's still maybe not getting the full attention within the firm that it deserves? Because obviously, there's a team talking about these things. But there's a difference of like, if there's a team who feels like they can move mountains, because they have all these resources, or if it's a team who's like, feels like they really need to sell these ideas to the rest of the firm for them to be executed? What's that dynamic like? I think it's, I think it's a mix. I do because there is a partnership, there's a lot of people at the table, typically, that are having these discussions, there's different business units, different service lines, all having differing opinions and being on one part of the spectrum or another. So I do think that that's a barrier to overcome, right? Because now you have to understand each individual concern within each service line or business unit, and be able to address those. So that that is certainly a challenge. But I do think from an overall leadership perspective, I do feel like most leadership feel like this is an issue that they want to address, or it's a challenge, I should say, that they definitely want to address. I'm hearing from a lot of leaders that I've either worked with or prospecting with, to partner with and work with, that they really do want to get the people resource management part right. They want to make sure that they're aligning the right people with the right skill sets. And that's where I think the Skills First movement, quite frankly, you're moving from a role based movement to a Skills First movement, is so important, because you have to think differently on how you're you're allocating your resources. So I do think it's, it's at the forefront. But I do think this is a multi year shift. This is definitely, you know, a marathon and not a sprint. And it takes targeted strategy, and leadership buy in to really move the needle forward forward. And then I'll just go back to, it takes it buy in from your employees as well, really, do they understand why this change is happening, or why the firm wants to shift. So really bringing them along the journey, I think is extremely important. Okay, well, can you elaborate a little bit on this Skills First movement you mentioned, because I'm not familiar with that, actually. Oh, it's like my favorite thing. So. You know, I here's a great example. You look at a job description, and you read it, you're like, Yeah, of course, I mean, all that, you know, maybe I have to have a certification, obviously, you know, CPA, for example, in the accounting industry. Great. But how do you know exactly what you'll be doing in that role? Or what skill sets are needed? You know, I think there are some, some organizations that are getting creative with a people leader versus a non people leader of a technology focused role versus non technology focused role, which those are great. But I think getting to the meat of really aligning the right folks with the right type of work and projects are really understanding their skill set. And what they bring to the table, whether that's functional, leadership, technical process, whatever that looks like, and what makes that person who they are, again, I go to like bringing, understanding who you employ, and who's working for you is so important, because that's how you align them. If you think about, you know, I was having a conversation when I was rolling skills out at Baker Tilly. And one of the conversations were, well, why do we want to know that someone like is a yogi outside of outside of work? I said, Well, the why you might want to know that is because you have a wellness program, right? Well, what if you're doing chair yoga, you have a person who, how excited would it be to like, you know, do chair yoga for the whole firm of, you know, however many 1000s of people and get a break from their day to day to be able to do something that is their passion about. So when I say skills first, I think some people think of that have just related to the job. And I think of beyond just related to the job. It's like, what else can they bring to their work that helps make them, you know, more fulfilled. So it's really moving from a description to really getting down to the skills and proficiencies of who you employ. That's, that's such a, like, refreshing mindset that I hope gets adopted very broadly. Because I do think right, like people are more. Yeah, absolutely. Like people are more than just the few things that are on the resume. And I think that addresses not only the fear of getting pigeonholed, because you're doing this specific thing, which I've heard a lot of people get afraid of in either tax or audit. And like, oh, I can't progress beyond a certain point, because then I'm going to be stuck in this forever. So having the skills first approach, I guess, allows them to develop more of a rounded skill set. But then I think it's just people, like you say, are like more than just their work inputs. And like being seen for like, everything you bring for the table would be or bring to the table would be like extremely refreshing, I think, right. And being asked to do something way outside of your role, but that they somehow know that you're going to be good at because of these other things they've looked at would be fantastic. Yeah, I think that's, that seems like a very sustainable real solution for people out there. Absolutely. And I mean, we are in a remote environment. So what better way to like even promote networking? Yeah, with like, with common interests and skill sets. Yeah. So, um, it feels like the talent crisis has been right, the like big topic for the last maybe two or three years, or like you mentioned, maybe kind of in the fallout of COVID. What was like the big thing before that? And were they guiding towards this talent, you know, shortage? Or is it mostly kind of reactive now that it's happening? Yeah, I think before that, certainly the accounting industry as a whole, what we're thinking about the shortages, there is a shortage there. So I think it was definitely a conversation before. But now it's the reactive because it's, it's becoming more aggressive. And I think it maybe snuck up a little bit quicker than was expected. So I think now it's really time for the pivot to see, what can we do what can we do differently? You know, what are the non-traditional ways? You know, tradition is great, but until it stops working, so then you have to pivot. What are those non-traditional ways that really make, make sense to make sure that we're building the pipeline? And also, again, I just go back to the culture of accounting. You know, that has to shift in order to continue to retain and attract top talent. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Like, I think, I think there's a lot that's on the other side of, you know, again, people blame the education side of things, but I don't think it's really that, like, people will pursue a PhD in history, because maybe it's intrinsically rewarding, or, right, like people were, people will do whatever it takes to get into investment banking, because the financial rewards are there. And I think it's like, the industry really needs to take a look at itself and go, okay, maybe the 150 hours thing is an issue, like, maybe we're creating unnecessary barriers to entry. But like, beyond that, like, why don't people want to come here? Because again, people go to extraordinary lengths for all kinds of things, provided that the incentives are there, right? So, yeah, it really is, I think that, like, the industry needs to take a look at itself and be like, why aren't people willing to do this one extra step to get here? Well, maybe it's because we haven't made it desirable enough to be here, right? That's right. So that's, that's very much my perspective on the whole issue, basically. So, yeah. I agree. When you go to therapy, like, like, if you were to go to therapy, they always say to look in, like, let's assess, do a self assessment. And I certainly think anytime you're trying to triage a challenge, self assessment first, before you look outward is so important. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I guess moving beyond kind of your roles at Deloitte and Baker Tilly, what was it that kind of made you want to go out independently on your own? And then I want to talk a little bit more about kind of what it is you do now and who you can help. But yeah, like, what was really kind of the driving force? Because you really were in a very influential role in these places, right? Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm so grateful for my opportunities at both Deloitte and Baker Tilly. I truly, I actually, I would not be able to go out on my own without those experiences. Because I have, you know, whether it's because I took opportunities that people didn't want, and I'm like, I'll do it. And they put me in, you know, in roles that were challenging to me and also allowed me to learn a lot of, a lot of great opportunities or a lot of great skill sets, I should say. But I would say, I've thought about it for a long time. It's always entrepreneurship. I've always had an entrepreneur mindset. And so it's always been in the back of mind. I think the thing last year where I was just like, you know what, it's the time to pursue it. There were a couple things. One, a lot of folks were reaching out to me. So to be quite frank, I, you know, I was being tapped on to get ideas on how to do transformation, how to do workforce planning, how to do resource management, and where to start, what is the technology. And so, you know, I was having informal conversations. And as I was having these conversations, I'm like, well, I would love to do this. I love transformation work. I love to look at challenges. dig in and and lead through talent, through transformation and be agile through that. So last year, you know, I talked to someone and I said, would it if I started an organization, would you hire me? And that they said yes, and they actually did. So I said, well, you know, if I don't take the leap, you have to, you know, something that you and I have talked about before, if you don't start, you'll never do it. So I felt like it was the right timing, personally, you know, in my personal life. And then also where I was at in my professional life, I felt like I had the credibility, I have a strong network, where now I can take that on a road and, you know, really kind of help and support and help folks through their resource management transformation and their skills first strategies. So that was my inspiration. And I really, I do want to be the change for professional services. I would like linked workforce to be the, you know, poster child for what professional services can truly look like and change that change the game, sort of say. Yeah, I'm right with you on that. Like I, you know, I would say I don't possess this HR knowledge and skills and whatnot, to be like, here's how we're going to fix it. But I think that the best disinfectant and sun is sunlight, right? So kind of just going like, hey, here are the issues, it's undeniable, here's what everyone's saying, can be like a contributor to kind of helping the profession. Because again, like I have a lot of love for the accounting profession. And I do think it gets a bad rap. And even though there are some very real challenges, there is this kind of future where it's like, it could be actually really great, it could be such a profession that's so full of pride, but like, is kind of like stuck in some of these challenges, right? So, you know, I hope I hope that linked workforce is a huge driver of some of this change. And even if it happens kind of firm by firm, right, where you kind of move from one project to the next, eventually, like that adds up to be a huge impact. So, you know, I really, I really hope that's the case. And so for like, listeners of this podcast, because I've worked a lot with kind of firm owners on this, what is something practical that these firms should be keeping top of mind as they develop their talent pools? Yeah, that's a great question. And I think the number one thing is don't lose sight of the employee experience. At the end of the day, all of us are trying to deliver great client service, attract amazing clients, and execute on what we promise. And I think that starts with having an employee pool that has a positive employee experience that is not overburdened with a lot of administrative work, which we know time entry is always on top of mind. They are just already CPE credits, and all these other things that are important to the profession, they need to happen, right? They're compliance driven, it's super important. So how can we make their lives easier, also bring in some of their understanding their skills that where they can maybe lend a hand across other parts of the organization or firm that might be energizing to them. So I think I would always say in your strategy, as you're setting up for a new year, we're in January, and people are really thinking about what they want to execute on this year. It's really thinking about how will you impact that employee strategy to drive to the business operations and results that you're looking for. And that example that I gave earlier with understanding that someone on your team is a yogi, how much money are you saving right there, just not hiring an external instructor for a wellness plan that you were going to do anyway? So it really does impact business priorities and business revenue as well, when you take that skills first approach. So to tie it in a bow, I would just say, you know, thinking of skills first and not waiting, you have to start somewhere, even if it's not perfect. The other thing is the employee experience, because all of this then impacts your clients in a positive way. And then like, what are some of the signs for like an accounting firm that it's, you know, it's time to call up Andrea or linked workforce to kind of come in and help them out? Like, what are some of the telltale signs that like an intervention or some kind of internal changes are needed? Yeah, I would certainly say if you're still resourcing and scheduling in Excel, 100% need to call me. If you don't know the skill sets of your employees, I think that is something where we can definitely strategize. Or if you are feeling like every leader that calls you is saying that we're tight on resources, but your utilization and revenue numbers are saying something different. So if your data is not matching what you're hearing, I think that is a time to give us a call as well. Because that is a signal, that's a signal that maybe you're not optimizing your workforce and the different talent pools and models that we talked about earlier. And you can certainly do things better. And I think the last thing is if you're experiencing really high burnout from your team. So if you're looking back on data and they're charging crazy hours during high peak times, probably a time to give us a call. Okay, right on. And where's the best place to do so? Where's the best place to reach out to? Yeah, so info at linked workforce.com. Our website is linked workforce.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn. So yes, we are out there. You can reach out directly to me on LinkedIn as well, and I'd be happy to direct you. But yeah, we're excited to have a great 2024. And like you said, one professional services firm at a time, just really making that impact and making that difference and leaving it happier than where we found it. That's awesome. Before letting you go, I have one kind of bonus question where I was really trying to source from kind of my audience. And I asked on Reddit as well. I obviously had to dig through a lot of things of like, you know, why do you hate me, which is not the questions I'm going to go for. But one of the ones that I thought was actually like exceptionally good was, was around kind of reconciling the return to office and outsourcing efforts. And basically, like how those discussions are happening within firms, right? Because on the one hand, they're saying, hey, all this work can happen remotely, not in office, actually, in an entirely different country. But then kind of on the other hand, there's this message that like, hey, we actually need to be together, we need to be in person to get our best work done. Do you know, like how that's being kind of reconciled how that's being discussed in firms at all? Yeah, I actually just posted on LinkedIn about this exact thing. So that's a great question. Yeah. Because I think there's a couple things. It has to be purpose driven. I would tie it back to what is that if you're going to mandate a return to office, understand the purpose of what's trying to be accomplished. We know that things can be accomplished remotely. We already we've established that through offshoring. I mean, even if you have an office in an offshore, and they work, they co work together, you still are doing remote work and being able to accomplish tasks together. And so there's not a purpose. So like, for example, I could give learning drivers, there might be opportunities to come in person to do, you know, simulated work, or learning opportunities that may be best held in person or strategy sessions, for example, those might be best held in person. But if you're just asking me to come in office to sit next to someone, for me to potentially have a question to tap them on the shoulder, which is these are things I've actually heard, like, hey, remember when you could just tap someone on the shoulder and just ask one that's highly intrusive, and disruptive if someone is heads down doing some work, so it's less actually becomes less productive. And then the second thing is, I can tap someone in Teams or Zoom, or, you know, Teams or Slack, or whatever collaboration tool that you utilize easily, and they can respond when they are available. So I would I would challenge anyone that says that I want to be able to tap someone on the shoulder, because it actually decreases productivity, but I would encourage those that are using it for productive learning opportunities, or really strategic and purpose driven ways, when you're in the office, that I think makes a lot of sense. And I can give up, you know, more examples, but I don't I don't want to impede on the time. But I would I would use the word purpose driven. I think that's the most important. It's, please be clear on the purpose. And I think that people will be more apt and open to return to the office if they truly understand what the goal is of doing so. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And then I guess, like, there needs to be that follow through where it needs to be like, hey, we are actually doing these in person sessions. Because yeah, I've, I, you know, my partner, actually, like she goes in office, and then does Zoom calls from the office all day. And it's like, well, you know, why are we doing this? Right? So yeah, there is a way to make it make sense to people. So I guess, hopefully, that gets to some people leaders, you know, I guess, hopefully, that gets to some people leaders out there or some firm owners of, you know, how to make it make sense to your employees. So thanks for thanks for answering that, Andrea. And thanks for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. This has been great. So thank you so much.