Governance, Growth, and the PE Playbook with Frank Longobardi

Before I jump into this episode, I want to give a big thank you to this episode's sponsor, Kanopy. Kanopy is a best-in-class practice management software to help your firm run smoother. If you want to get the most out of your talent at your accounting firm, you need to make sure that they have access to the right tools to be able to properly leverage their time and spend more time doing what they are best at, and less time in the weeds trying to manage firm operations, trying to get organized folders, and trying to figure out where all the documentation is. So if you want to run a smoother operation, check out getkanopy.com. They're going to be linked in the podcast description. And unclunk your firm with Kanopy. Hello and welcome to the Big Four Transparency Podcast. I am super excited today to be joined by Frank Lungobardi, the former CEO of Kohn Resnick and current strategic consultant to Sapro and well, a whole bunch of other things as well. Welcome to the pod, Frank. Well, thank you, Dom. Happy to be here. Yeah, yeah, my pleasure. So we recently met at Firm Growth Forum, you know, kind of mid-sized conference, huge fan of it. It was, it was really successful. And I had some really great conversations with you. And one of the things that was top of mind is like, what's, you know, what's Frank doing here? Because you're at the absolute pinnacle of what one could achieve in the accounting industry. And so what's, what's kind of driving your continued energy in the accounting space? Yeah, it's a great question. You know, listen, I, I've been in the accounting space since 1977. So it's been a long time. And I've gone from running, you know, starting a firm, building it up over 23 years, and then merging it into J.H. Cohen, and then ultimately becoming CEO of Kohn Resnick. So it's been quite a journey. And I feel like I owe a lot to the profession because I really enjoy the profession. It's taught me so much. I've met so many great people. I've had so many great life experiences because of it. And, you know, Sapro was good enough to, you know, want me to help them be a strategic advisor to them as they grow their business. And it's allowed me to kind of continue to stay active in the profession, which I really enjoy. And, and then with private equity, obviously coming into the profession, it's given me a lot of opportunities, you know, to meet with private equity firms and, and educate them about, you know, what, what I see is kind of a good accounting firm or an accounting firm that maybe has some, some warts that need, you know, need some improvement. But all in all, it's been, it's been a fun ride. And I continue to enjoy working, you know, my golf game's just not good enough for me to play golf five days a week. So what are we, what are we talking about here? You under a hundred or I'm under a hundred, but I used to be a lot better, but I'm, I'm right around 90 these days. So it's not, not quite where I want to be. That's what I'm gunning for. So that's, that's a okay. Okay. Well, awesome. So yeah, opinions are very mixed on private equity in the accounting profession. So maybe we start there. I think, you know, is the ideal state that private equity kind of is owning all these firms? I'm not sure. Like, I think it makes a lot of sense given the fact that a lot of firms who are owned by partners entirely do tend to under invest in the future. And so I think it's, you know, is it the ideal state? Maybe not in my opinion, but I think it's much better than the alternative, which is continued under investment in the future. And if private equity is going to be involved, I'm happy that they're talking to guys like you who've had, you know, very long, illustrious careers as a CPA in the profession. And you can really represent that kind of, uh, you know, that kind of perspective for them and make sure that they're doing it well, and that they're going to be the positive contributing private equity firms. So, um, what's, what's your opinion on private equity in the industry overall? Yeah. You know, let me give a little history of accounting firms. And I think this is why I like private equity, you know, accounting firms historically, the way they've been managed, whether they're small or large, uh, is basically you bill your clients, you pay your expenses, and whatever's left gets distributed to the partners. Cause that's the model that we've kind of grown up in. And there's never been, uh, really kind of a retention of capital mentality. Uh, when you bought firms, if you merge firms in, everything was based on future retirement value. So you didn't have to write a check. You didn't have to do any of that. So, um, you know, so basically you didn't need to have a lot of capital to buy firms. Well, today with the advent of new technologies and technology being a big part of your budget and the fact that when you want to do M&A, whether it's an accounting firm or a consulting firm, you know, you need cash. I mean, there's, there's a lot of cash that's required at the closing in order to attract some of these firms. So I believe accounting firms now are more capital intensive than they've ever been. And firms just aren't really, I don't think they're prepared for that amount of capital. So unless the firm is willing to go out and borrow money, you know, and take on debt, which accounting firms have always been very adverse to, uh, I think private, private equity is a perfect alternative in terms of coming in, providing access to resources, but more importantly, providing access to capital so that they can continue to grow. Accounting firms, you know, I, I believe there's so much potential in them that that is going to be unleashed with a private equity investment. Uh, and I know it's not for everybody, so I'm not trying to be here for, you know, PE advocate, but, but I do like the model and I think the model makes a lot of sense. Um, so I, I would, uh, I'm a proponent of it. Yeah. Okay. So you're saying you are a very, you know, positive proponent of private equity in the accounting firm. And actually one of the big topics at firm growth forum that was brought up was like building for enterprise value is kind of a new thing in the accounting industry. And I think is very positive in the sense of, you know, we're now kind of focused on a lot of forward looking things and reinvestment of capital. So I think that that's super important. Yeah. Without a doubt. And, you know, private equity also brings a few other things that I, I think are important. Uh, you know, one is around governance, you know, accounting firms have always been governed in a partnership model. And, uh, and I can tell you, you know, having served as a CEO and reporting to a board of, you know, 10 plus people, it, it's a lot to get decisions made. You know, you have to really kind of work the room and you got people on the board that are different ages. They got different objectives. Um, they're different disciplines. I think having a smaller circle that runs the firm and allows the partners to do what they do best, which is serve clients and, and lead people. Um, I, I think that's another way to go. And I, I think the other, the other thing private equity brings to the table is, you know, I believe it helps with attraction of talent because you're bringing in younger people that, that have an opportunity to participate in the growth of the firm. And I think that's really important today because our, our model has been somewhat, uh, you know, uh, antiquated, right. You know, you, you hire somebody out of school, a bright person finished, you know, top 10 of their class. And you bring them in and say, you know what, in 16 years, you're going to be a partner. And, you know, after that, we're going to pay you at age 65, you know, retirement benefit, and we're going to pay it to you over 12 years, you know, and it's just, it's not attractive to the young people today because they see their friends joining finance companies and private equity firms and investment banks. And, and, and they're seeing rewards much sooner and probably at times when it's much more desirable in their, you know, in their life cycle because they're raising kids, they want to buy a house or whatever it may be. So I, I, there's a lot of reasons to like private equity. Yeah. Well, that was one of the like kind of panic moments when I started in, in public accounting was like, Oh my God, I'm, I'm like never going to be able to buy a house. And, and sure enough, like the later rewards are there. And, and I'm happy with big four transparency that I'm able to kind of help communicate that at least, but we have seen wages kind of at the lower end of the scale increased quite rapidly over the last kind of two, three years. So, you know, I think there's a lot of leeway before it becomes, you know, investment banking or private equity where you're like, wow, I'm out of school and I'm doing fantastic. But it has, you know, progressed in that direction. And it's, it's refreshing to hear a take from someone who is in your position agreeing with that, because, you know, a lot of the younger people who feel like they're, they're not being compensated, you know, to scale or appropriately within the firm, they kind of tend to villainize some of the, some of the older people who are on the other end of that scale. And they're, you know, Oh, they're just trying to squeeze us dry. And, and so I think it's really important for people to hear you particularly, right. Advocating for that and saying like, okay, like this does need to become a more attractive position at the entry and early year level. And, and ultimately that might help everyone along the way. Right. Yeah. I imagine a lot of the headaches at the very senior level at Kohn Resnick, we're probably coming from, Hey, like we're having a hard time, you know, keeping people in the mid level, keeping people kind of in the, in the early stages of the career. And so a lot of the problems will then trickle uphill all the way to the partners. And it's great to be compensated wonderfully, but if you then have to deal with all the problems of the firm, you know, that's, that's not what anyone wants either. No, I mean, listen, we used to be a profession of choice, right. For, for accounting, I mean, for, for college graduates, you know, they, they wanted to go into accounting because there were plentiful jobs and, you know, we were paying competitive salaries, but, but I do believe with the advent of private equity, investment banking, and all the things that have happened over, say the last 10 years, you know, we all of a sudden are not quite that same profession of choice that we were. And you're seeing that in the numbers of accounting kids graduating. Now, the other thing that happened in the profession is we went to a five-year program and a five-year degree, and that's kind of turned away a lot of the younger people because they don't want to go to that fifth year and incur the expense of a fifth year. So, you know, we're wrestling with that as a profession, and I know the AICPA is working hard at trying to come up with alternatives to help keep people attracted to the profession because I still believe it's, it's the best profession out there for somebody coming out of school. You can learn so much, you get so much responsibility at an early age, and it's a springboard to so many different things that you can use across your lifetime. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and so for yourself, like you didn't, you know, for a lot of people, the pinnacle of the career is, is becoming partner and that's kind of the goal. And you obviously continued a pretty far way past that to end up as CEO of Kohn Resnick, ultimately. So what drove you to want to kind of continue kind of progressing and growing in your career beyond the partner level? And then how did that role, like how did your day-to-day job evolve as, as part of that? Yeah, you know, it was really interesting when we merged our firm, which was about a hundred plus person firm in Hartford, Connecticut into J.H. Kohn in 2007. I, you know, had the opportunity, J.H. Kohn gave me the opportunity to really work on more firm related, you know, growth objectives. So one of the things they asked me to do was to head up their industry groups. We went to market by industry. So I had the opportunity to, to run 10, 10, 10 or so different industries and help them develop their business plans and go to market strategies. And that was, that was really, you know, I enjoyed a lot because I enjoyed that whole, whole thing about growth and how do you grow a firm. And one of the things you need to do to be, you know, famous in an industry and have famous people in that industry. And so that, that worked out really well. And I think it was a springboard that allowed me to, you know, I was on the J.H. Kohn board as part of our merger document, but then I got elected to the board by the J.H. Kohn partners, which, you know, was obviously an honor. And then when we did the Resnick merger in 2012, I was asked to be on the board of the new, of the new company. So that gave me more responsibilities. And at the time we had co-CEOs from each one, from each firm, which, you know, which is really difficult. I gotta be honest, it's not the best way to govern a firm, but that's the only way we could get the deal done. Right. And it was important to get the deal done. And I think Tom Marino and Ken Baggett did a really good job of getting that part, part right. And, uh, and then, uh, when I got elected, uh, sole CEO in, uh, October 1, 2015, you know, I threw my hat in the ring and I did so because I just felt I could make a difference. And throughout my career, that was always important to me, you know, what can I do to better the firm, whether it was my own firm, whether it was when I was a partner at J.H. Kohn or a partner at Kohn Resnick. And, you know, the fact that I could, I felt I could make a difference in the firm, you know, really, uh, inspired me to want to, you know, throw my hat in the ring and, and, and become CEO. And, and listen, I was surrounded, you know, when I became CEO, I was surrounded by a lot of great people. Uh, and these people, you know, you don't, you don't grow a firm and take a firm to the next level, you know, without that. And, and I would say the second lesson I learned was culture. You know, you have to have a singular culture. You know, we, we really had two cultures for a number of years cause both firms were very different. Um, but once we started to create what I call the one firm, firm first attitude, you know, that's when things changed. And I, and I think, uh, you know, the firm has, uh, excelled, you know, after I left, which always made me feel, uh, really proud that the firm has gotten to the next level over a billion dollar firm and now has just taken private equity from Apex partners, which I think is just going to unleash a lot of growth and opportunities for our people at Kohn Resnick. Yeah. Well, I mean, you, you were clearly doing something right because some of the things that cause major difficulties and challenges are from a culture perspective, are these mergers? And then also we are seeing some firms who take on private equity struggle on that front. So with big four transparency, one of the data points we collect is, is around job satisfaction. And so we have, you know, we have a top firms list and we have, uh, you know, a little bit of a naughty list and, uh, Kohn Resnick has, has not appeared on the naughty list, which is good because you've gone through a lot of the, you know, you've gone through all of these things that can contribute to difficulties in culture while still navigating, not having huge difficulties in culture. So, I mean, you've, you've, you've definitely done something right on that, on that front. So, and then on, on, on to being CEO there. So you talk a lot about governance issues. What is that kind of decision-making process like? Because you are the CEO, so you should in theory be kind of driving the strategic direction, but then at the same time, you I'm sure have a lot of voices because of the typical partner model of, you know, maybe older partners who want to optimize for cash flows and then younger partners who maybe want to optimize more for future cash flows and reinvestment. And, and how do you think that has changed for who is now the current CEO now that there's been a private equity deal done? Yeah, no, that's a great question. You know, listen, when you're CEO with, uh, with a board in a large firm, you know, obviously you have a lot of power as CEO and you have the ability to, you know, drive, you know, my, my job is really to drive the strategic vision. You know, I had my five strategic pillars and how we're going to run those through the firm. But when it came time for, uh, M&A investments or large technology investments, and I'm not talking about a $250,000 technology, but you know, you could spend a million, $2 million, $3 million on something, you know, anytime you had those kinds of major decisions, you know, it was a, it was a process, you know, it wasn't, you know, something that was going to, um, you know, go through on a, on a first vote type of thing. You know, everybody would have their opinions and then everybody would say, well, why don't we go back and, you know, do this analysis and that analysis. So, you know, I was used to, you know, when I ran a small firm, you know, basically my founding partner and myself, you know, we, we'd make a decision and, you know, we'd come out of the conference room and we're saying, we're going right, everybody. And everybody would line up and we'd go right, you know, and then two days later, we're saying we're going left and they would all line up going left. In a big firm, you can't do that. You know, you gotta, you know, and, and I had to learn that along the way, you know, that you had to be more of a political animal and get people to buy in. And you said it before, you got partners with different objectives. You know, if I'm a partner on the board at age 63 and you want to spend $3 million on a, on a project or $5 million on a firm, you know, they're saying, what's in it for me? I'm going to be gone in two years and I want to make sure you guys are well capitalized to, you know, to take on my retirement. So you had those kinds of issues. I think today with a smaller board, you know, you take someone like Apex coming in, David Kessler's now the CEO. David's a good, good man. And, and so he's got probably, you know, a couple of people, a couple of partners from CR and they probably have a couple of people from Apex and I don't know exactly, you know, but it's a smaller board. They've got clear objectives of what they want to do in M&A. They're going to come up with a clear technology plan and the capital is going to be there to do that. And the partners have a vested interest now because listen, if they can do a, you know, if they can do a, you know, a second bite of the apple in three to five years, you know, there's going to be a lot of money made for a lot of partners. So, so I think there's a lot of really good alignment that you start to see, you know, when you get into a kind of a private equity arrangement. And one of the things that's really fascinating to me in private equity over the last couple of years is how many private equity firms are interested in smaller firms and looking at that as kind of a platform investment, whether it's a 25, 30, $40 million firm. So that's why I believe there's still going to be a lot of activity in private equity. There's still a large demand from private equity firms to get into, you know, get into the space. So I think you'll start to see, you know, more of that in it. And I also believe as deals happen, they put a, they put firms that haven't done deals in a less competitive situation because if you're dealing with somebody in your market, that's a $40 million firm and it's kind of your major competition and they've done a PE deal and you haven't, you know, they've got something to offer that, you know, could, you know, could be compelling to attract people, could also be compelling to attract clients. So, so I think there's going to be pressure on those firms to kind of reconsider their, you know, go independent type of attitude. Yeah. And so talking about all these private equity firms, one of the things that I've had a conversation about that makes, you know, some of these private equity backed firms unique, although some non PE backed firms like Bennett Thrasher are doing this as well, where, you know, they'll have a board made up of, of non CPAs. Right. And this is a conversation that's happened where it's like, well, okay, who, who might the most qualified head of growth be? You know, is it the partner who rose up the ranks and understands absolutely everything about the accounting industry? Or is it going to be someone who's had an illustrious career working in growth and, and, you know, might be an outside perspective and has expertise beyond the accounting realm. You were obviously a CEO who came up through the partner space. I don't know if, if the current kind of leadership and board of Cone Resnick is mostly CPAs who've risen up the space, but what do you think the trade-offs are of each of those? You know, it's interesting that I do believe that private equity is not afraid at all to bring in people from the outside. I think in some respects, they probably like it because it kind of breaks the paradigm and it gives them the ability to kind of bring in a whole different perspective. And I mean, you may see that like with Ascend, right? Ascend just hired a, you know, a CEO, I don't know, maybe a year ago. And that CEO is I think from a mattress background, you know, where they were in the mattress business and grew it to a very, you know, large, you know, large business and ultimately they sold it out. And so he's got a whole different experience level that he brings to the table. And I don't think that's bad. You know, I think sometimes, you know, accountants need a fresh perspective as to how they look things. So it won't surprise me if you see more of that, whether it's a CEO, whether it's a COO, I think a COO would be, you know, somebody that could be very ripe for somebody from the outside or a chief growth officer. You know, I think any of those positions could, you know, could be filled by, you know, third-party candidates that are not necessarily CPAs and have gone through the ranks. So the caution of that is they have to make sure that you educate them because accounting firms are different. You know, they're not the typical kind of company. You're dealing with partners and, you know, owners that, you know, have very, you know, different, you know, different ideas and objectives. You know, I always say when I was at Cohen Resnick, I think our partner peak when I was there was maybe 275 partners. And, you know, it's not easy, you know, trying to keep 275 partners with different ages, different compensation levels, different, you know, retirement dates, skill sets. I mean, you know, happy, you know, and trying to keep them in. And you can't always keep everybody happy. That I learned. And, you know, I remember Tom Marino telling me when I took over, he goes, listen, if you want to be loved, buy a dog, you know, because you're not going to be in this profession, which is very true. But, you know, I do believe that it's hard, you know, when you have a big group like that. And once you get, I think, a different governance structure and the partners know their job is to listen, serve the client, grow our people. And, you know, if you can do those things, you know, we're going to be successful. And I think that's where the profession is heading. But I do think you'll start to see third party people, non-CPAs, you know, coming into ownership or not ownership, but a skilled positions like CEO, COO or CGO. Okay. Interesting. And then one of the things you do for private equity groups, which I was like, I was floored by, you mentioned is, is you, you help them diligence deals sometimes. So, sorry, go ahead. I've been, you know, very lucky that I've had a number of PE firms reach out to me over the last, you know, three to four years as PE has become more prevalent. Just with, you know, listen, we need somebody to kind of help us just sort through some of the data, reaffirm, you know, our opinions on what we think of the firm and, you know, and it's been, it's been fun. You know, I enjoy that. And listen, I know the space so well that, you know, I could really spend two, three, four hours on a deck that they present and come back with, you know, what I think is, you know, kind of the good, the bad and, and the ugly of the firm and what are the things that they should really be, you know, excited about and what are some of the things they should be a little bit nervous about. And what are like some of the biggest green lights and red lights for, for an accounting firm? Yeah. So listen, I think partner revenue is really important. You know, what, you know, how much revenue you have per partner, what kind of, what kind of staff ratio do you have to the, to partner? I think the higher the staff ratio, the better run firm, the better managed firm. You want to look at, you know, just staff, staffing costs, you know, are they, are they doing some type of offshoring that could be really helpful to their numbers and, and really help them with a, what I call a global staffing strategy. how are they dealing with technology what are some of the things you're doing across a you know you see from sometimes that you are dealing with too many small clients you know and and and and those clients just aren't creative to the you know to the firm's profit and you know we we went through a huge client profitability analysis you know when i was CEO i think every firm needs to go through that exercise and see you know where are there where do the clients stand within their profitability matrix and you know calling clients is not a bad thing you know you've got to be proactive and make sure you're putting your best resources serving the best clients so so you'll see some of that and but you're going to find that in smaller firms you know if you're acquiring a twenty five thirty forty million dollar firm they're going to have a book of business that's all across the spectrum they're going to have very small clients can i have some really marquee clients that you know at the top of the food chain but i'm going to see a wide range and you got a kind of you know sit through that i got a look at leadership how old is leadership what kind of. No succession plan do they have you have good succession plans that the clients are really clients of the firm. And not clients so that when a partner retires the client doesn't feel any allegiance to the firm so you always want to look at you always want to look at that. You like to see the go to market strategy you know i'm a big believer that you go to market by industry group. So that if you're you know if you have strong industry presence it's going to give you the market permission to grow in that industry and you need you know you need famous people in that industry that really know the industry inside out you know one of the things we did it because we basically. Assigned every partner. To an industry now they could spend a hundred percent of their time in the industry or maybe they spent sixty but then they had to have a backup industry to spend the remaining time and that made a huge difference in our capabilities and how we service our industry clients. So i think firms that have strong industry groups and go to market with an industry playbook you know those firms i feel are step step ahead of some of the other firms. Okay that's that's really interesting and this kind of brings me to my last question i want to keep you too long the like you seem like you're incredibly plugged into what's going on in the industry. Was that the case when you were kind of coming up the ranks at at cone resnick because i feel like a lot of partners particularly at large firms like when to get into the hundred million plus revenue range they in a very siloed. Like you only know what's going on in your own firm you only do the cp provided by your firm you go to your firm's conference and things like that but you seem like you have a very like an excellent grasp of the overall industry and what's going on. Was that the case when you were a partner and if so do you think that that made a huge difference to helping you kind of rise up into more leadership. That's it that's a great question you know when i had my own firm. I would tell you the answer was probably no and i say that because when you have your own firm you are wearing so many hats i mean you're trying to grow the business. You're out three four nights a week at events you're trying to service the client you're working fifteen sixteen hundred charge hours. Yeah you know you're trying to keep the staff happy and trying to provide opportunities to the staff so you have all these competing interests and you know sometimes what gets lost in that is you use don't take that step back. And understand what's happening around you and i would say when i became part of jh calling that changed and you know and i needed to be more. You know more absorbing of what was happening around me and you know i'm running ten industry group so i need to know what the industries were doing what was happening in those markets what were other firms doing so that really kind of open my eyes and allowed me i think to really. Move you know move up my thinking as to how you know you should manage and run a firm but when you're in a smaller firm. You're in survival mode you just wanna you know every day is you know you're you're you're slugging it out you know to keep the firm running smoothly and make sure that you're providing good quality you know i used to remember i get. A call you know client was leaving the firm and you know my partners wouldn't come near me because i knew i was in my blood pressure was like up to here and you know i just hate it losing business didn't matter what the size of it was i just. Losing business and i was bothering me but you know i should get into a bigger firm you realize that you know you can't service every client. There's certain clients you just have to let go and you have to spend your time really really no one clients gonna kill you, you know so you have to really be focused on taking care of the great clients and i think that was a major mental shift for me as you know as i progressed in the ranks. Yeah well and it's to me it seems really important that people in those kind of senior leadership positions at the big firm kind of take note of that because the the leverage on one thing you might apply when you're in a thousand person firm right you pick up on one best practice from a conference you go to or or someone else from another firm that you're hanging out with. And you apply that to your firm you know that might be several million dollars worth of value that you've unlocked whereas i do understand when you're a smaller practice and you're in survival mode and you're just trying to get by get through the day it's obviously not a reasonable ask but to me it does seem very important that some more senior leaders end up at those places and you know we saw a lot of senior leadership from from certain firms that. At from growth forum but you're still not seeing like a swath of partners from you know top twenty five firms for the most part in those places and i think that that would do a lot of good to a lot of those firms operations and how they treat people and cultures and all of that if if they were kind of taking that all in so. That's a good point and i think listen as a top twenty five firm in some respects those partners you know the ceo's and of those firms have a responsibility to get back to the profession and to, you know ten somebody's conferences people will be really excited to see them and spend time with them and you know what you're doing is you're just spreading your brand right building your brand and you know building your following which is you know which is really important for those firms so it's a good it's a good comment. Yeah well thank you so much for taking the time frank i really appreciate it and it was it was just it was nice it was really nice meeting you at the conference and you brought a lot of kind of new perspective that again a lot of people don't necessarily have access to or or, people who've been in the industry and and you know all of these different levels in the industry like you have so you know thanks a lot from myself but i'm sure also to many many participants in the industry for all that you do and for for staying involved. Yeah it was fun and if i can just put one one plug in i just um absolutely you know i've been doing some work with sapro quite a bit you know around their their firm and and i do i will ask firms to really look at, their global staffing strategy because right now accounting firms are in a spot where many of them are overstaffed so they're not really thinking about the next downturn. I can tell you been in this profession for forty years the next downturn will come where people are leaving the profession again and your turnovers going from your eight to ten percent today back up to fifteen to sixteen or seventeen percent and by having a global staffing strategy i think it makes a lot of sense, and you know when i see the firms that i look at from a diligence perspective for the people you know many of them have already set up their own global centers, they might have fifty a hundred two hundred people at those centers and it's gonna make you more attractive to a private equity firms i think there's a lot of opportunity there to kind of build that and it's not, it's not as difficult as you might think it takes time but they're really best practices that you can use to kind of develop your offshore strategy so. Again i'm happy they're working with you and they're getting the kind of real real perspective so they can be absolutely connected to the industry, so make sure i link sapro and i will also make sure that i link kind of how to get in touch with you because. Again it's it's astounding how much you are still involved in the industry and i'm sure the impact that you're having on a lot of the places that you're working with so you know if anyone's listening and they're trying to get unstuck and they need a little bit more industry perspective you'd be a great person to speak with for sure so. Thanks i really enjoyed meeting you as well and i enjoyed today's session and let's keep in touch.