Building in Parallel & Accounting for Creatives with Jeanne Hardy

Hello, and welcome to the Big Four Transparency podcast. I'm joined today by Jean Hardy, the founder and CEO of both Creative Business Inc and Levy. Thanks for joining me on the show, Jean. Thanks, Dom. It's great to be here. I'm really excited. Yeah, my pleasure. Yeah. It's been a long time coming. We had some conversations a little while ago, and now we finally get the opportunity to record, which brings me into, you are a busy woman. And I'm very curious maybe to start off, what's it like running an accounting firm and then also having this business that's getting all kinds of traction, which is Levy on the side as well? I'd be curious to hear, I mean, first of all, maybe what Levy is all about. And then next, how you've been balancing the two. Well, it's a great question. It's a little crazy. It's definitely exciting. It's a lot of fun. Creative Business was started in 2005. So we've been around for a while. We're going to be 20 years next year. And it's a really well-run machine. And what was happening there, the problems that I was trying to solve as we were evolving into this more mature state and trying to scale, was we just didn't have the right technology. We tried a whole bunch of different platforms and it wasn't working. And so because I'm at the point where I'm able to really focus on the business and I'm not really doing a lot of client work, I'm not working in the business, I started looking into the different things we could use to move forward and ended up not being able to find something that the team and I really aligned behind as this is going to get us to the next level. And so we started building it and lo and behold, we built it for ourselves. So we built it for a cast practice, an advisory practice that's trying to scale and grow and have standardized our processes and be super efficient, really fully utilize our offshore team, all of those great things. And so, yeah, so we built it for us. And then in 2023, the whole company went on, all of our clients, and it worked so well for creative business that we took it to market. And so here we are in the market and we're onboarding firms. And yeah, it's a lot of fun. It's pretty intense, though. I have to say, technology is really, honestly, it's so creative, but it is learning like an entirely new language. Like every day, there's a thousand things I don't know how to do. Yeah, it's pretty exciting. Yeah. Well, kudos on taking that on. I love just the general business structure of that. I consume a lot of media on the entrepreneurship space and all that. And a lot of what you hear about is these internally built tools that get spun out into businesses, and then they turn out to be the best businesses ever, right? So what I'll call business crush has been Beehive for the longest time. And that was a newsletter tool that was built inside of Morning Brew because they really needed that to be able to scale. And that's what I use for the Big Four Transparency Newsletter. And I'm like, this is the best. And you can absolutely tell that the people who have built this are actually doing the thing and struggling with the same issues that you're struggling with as you go through. So I have a lot of faith in Levy being kind of an excellent product, just kind of based off of that story alone. That's my favorite thing, where I was just onboarding a firm last week. And the team, so we onboarded all the managers, and then we brought the rest of their team on. And we were kind of doing a little Q&A right at the end. And it's the best feeling in the world when someone on the team is like, I can't believe you built this. You thought of everything. It's exactly built for what we need to do. And I think vertical SaaS is definitely the future. And trying to take a tool that's built for a general application or even project management, which this isn't project management. This is like work stream building, right? And we're like building work that's going to continue. It reoccurs. It evolves over time. And how do you really capture all of that and be able to use it in your firm to keep improving your services, right? To keep improving the service delivery and analyzing what you really need so you can make a strategic hire. You can make a strategic exit a client and really know why you're doing it and make sure that it makes sense, right? All these decisions that firm owners have to continuously think about, it's really hard to get data around those decisions. And with a tool like Levy, talking with the owners that we're working with and talking with their teams, it's like we're giving them the window into their own business in a way that is so meaningful because those are the decisions that they're making day by day by day. And it's like the hugest win for us when we hear someone say, this is exactly what we've been looking for. And so I'm looking forward to now we're like trying to spread the word and try to get people to jump on and join us. Awesome. Well, before kind of asking you a little bit about some of the like very specific challenges you were having, I think it'd be good to cover a little bit on like what is CAS and like why is it emerging in the way it is? Because I think I heard it first, maybe like five months ago, four months ago, something like that. And now it seems like it's like the only thing I see on like tax, Twitter, LinkedIn and all that. And obviously I've curated a bit of the people I follow, but it seems like this is really kind of come out and has become like quite a movement in accounting firms to like start implementing CAS. So yeah, would you be able to kind of share what it is and what makes it unique? Well, I think like what does CAS stand for is still kind of a question mark. You know, we were just talking about this, but like, yeah, people say it stands for a number of different things. So I like to think about it as like, let's say complete advisory services or, you know, some say it's client accounting services, but then why do we need CAS if there's already accounting services out there, right? So client advisory services, I think CAS is the future for firms of any size. I think it also, there's an interesting moment now where people who have left larger firms have started their own firms, you know, they're doing the tax work, but they also actually are super interested in taking on a more advisory role with their clients, because frankly, it's a lot of fun. It's really fulfilling work to provide that value service. And there's a ton to do there. Like, you know, I feel like businesses, you know, just from being around for 20 years, the way that accountants, you know, work with businesses is very different now than the way that it used to be. You know, it'd be like, we would have, we would be showing accountants books either monthly or accountants would come to businesses like monthly and sit down with the owners and look at the books and look at the reports, you know, and now accountants don't look at the, you know, they don't, they don't always look at what's going on in the business until they're doing the tax return. Right. So, so it's kind of up to the bookkeepers and the controllers and the CFOs to sort of push that information to the accountants all throughout the year to make sure that they're in the loop on major changes and transitions that are happening in the company. So, so it's a really, it's a really necessary thing for accountants to be able to do these days because businesses are faced with kind of an unprecedented amount of, of complex decisions that they need to make. I think what, what you're seeing when you talk about, like, I haven't heard about CAS in the last four or five years. I really think what happened through COVID, through the pandemic was really instrumental. And it wasn't the, you know, there was like 2008 and 2009, the, you know, the banking crisis and the recession. And then, and then there's, you know, then, then what happened with COVID, it was businesses are really constantly struggling to recover from these like major, you know, economic you know, incidences that happened. And then something like COVID really sort of threw these businesses into the arms of the accountants saying like, help me get the PPPs. Help me like understand, like, can I survive? How long am I going to, am I going to make it through this year? And, you know, I think businesses trying to find a partner in their, in their, their tax team or their financial team, that's, that's someone like outside that works with other companies that could say, what about the rest of the companies that you're working with? Like, what are they, you know, that, that kind of advisory service is so critical right now to businesses. Yeah. And it's funny, like, there's some, some pretty blatantly obvious seeming things when you're in that world that can actually like make all the difference to a business. So like where I was working, I was in FP&A and, you know, at a time where everyone's talking about layoffs and all that, and just like a small question of like, Hey, like, where's their money sitting right now? And it wasn't being invested into like treasuries or anything really, you know, probably saved four or five people's jobs by just being able to be like, Hey, you can be earning 5% on this pretty easily. It was like a day of work and meant like $700,000 for the business. And it was just something that like is absolutely blatantly obvious to someone in that world, but to like a business owner or someone like that, like you might never think of these things. And, and, you know, the ROI on some of this is like, yeah, like a day of my work for several hundred thousand dollars is pretty wicked. And like the less internal support that you have at your company, the more likely it is that there's this kind of like low hanging fruit that someone who's well-versed in that world might be able to find. Right. And even just like some owners operating blind, like there was no like cashflow projections and stuff like that. I think that's like a really good place for like CAS services to be able to step in. And it seems daunting, you know, to put like a financial model together, you know, for a business owner, you know, they have their, they're kind of like operating in sort of like in their own area of knowledge. Right. And when you think about the financial department, like everything should be vetted through the financial department of your business. Right. But when you say, okay, well, what's your financial department look like? And the business is like, not that maybe it's one person, maybe it's a, it's an outsourced bookkeeper and my accountant. So two people that are, you know, might, might not even talk to each other very often. Right. And compare notes. You spend a lot of time with our businesses, getting them to get us into the meetings with the salespeople, the marketing people. Like we want, we want people accountable for their budgets. We want, you know, we want to build that financial model around each business activity that's impacting the financials and making sure that the owners understand how that all sits together and how, you know, and I think when you can like illuminate that for even the marketing team, they get excited. Like they get, they actually like to have some kind of parameter, some budget to work with. Right. So it is, it is something that working across multiple different businesses, you can start to see the weak link, right? You just say, oh, you know what, this other company is so well run. And I think that's because they have these regular meetings, they have these regular sharing moments. Let's try that here. And I think, I think you guys will get a lot of benefit off it. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's always like a benefit to having some things like outsourced, like bringing in, you know, a team of professionals to do it while like, yeah, there's often like some savings to be had by having things in house once you reach a certain scale. But like, I do think that the normalization of outsourced services for that is really good because you can, you can bridge that gap where maybe you just need like a half of an accountant extra, or your, your person, your controller right now is just like so deep underwater that like, there's no way that they're going to have any time to look at treasury FBA activities, things like that. So I think it is, it's really, really valuable to, to kind of have that in businesses. So it makes sense to me that, you know, this is growing so much. Yeah. I think business owners actually appreciate, like, I think now more than ever before, when, when you say, you know, I think you, you, you really would benefit from having a fractional CFO, you know, five, 60 years ago, people would be like, I can't afford that. Or I don't, you know, that's my bookkeeper's fine. Or, but, but now I feel like business owners really understand the value of having somebody who's doing this for a lot of different companies to just kind of drop in and supervise and say, you know what? Like you're not even using the right software for your company. And your bookkeeper was your administrative assistant, and they've grown into this role. And, you know, they could actually, they're doing a fine job, but they could actually, you know, up their skills and they actually want to grow in their position. And maybe some additional training would be helpful, or your bookkeeper actually needs an assistant. Your bookkeeper's fantastic, but you're like not even utilizing their, you know, their like great knowledge because they're, they're entering payables all day long kind of thing. So I think having somebody drop in even quarterly and, you know, ask some questions would be, is super beneficial for any business. And it's, it's great. So accounting firms, you know, are looking for, to add services, right. And to, you know, find ways to increase pricing, right. Possibly move to more retainer based or, you know, fee based pricing. And the compliance work is not as robust as it used to be, right. Or maybe it's not as interesting to the firm owners at this point. But having, having a way to offer different services to your existing client base is kind of textbook growth strategy. Like we have, we have users, what else can we do for them? You know, they already trust us. We have all like, how can we leverage our existing relationships to, to grow the firm and be more profitable? So it's, you know, it's, it's a really kind of standard business growth hack to, to start what you have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to touch on that a little bit. So in an episode I did with like Zane Stevens of Protea, we talked actually about how like scope limitations can be a huge benefit to your business as well, because he was talking about like, they don't do taxes. They get a ton of referral from tax firms. They don't do, you know, whatever it might be. I don't want to misquote, maybe wealth management. They get a lot of referrals from there, I think he was saying. And because they kind of stay in their lane, people feel really good about bringing them in on their clients. Now, creative business, my understanding from our previous conversation is you don't do taxes, but you've kind of expanded into like virtual CFO, virtual CMO, virtual CHRO. Like you've, you've really, really broadened the scope of what you're offering. So I'm curious to know a little bit like strategically, what does that kind of look like? And then, you know, realistically, like how many of these services are you usually able to kind of like cross offer to the same client base? So, well, creative business has a couple of different divisions. So while we are niche in creative industry clients, so what we did is we started in, you know, we have design, architecture, industrial design. We have e-commerce, which are, you know, makers, brands, lifestyle brands. And then we have, you know, a fine arts division, right? But what happens across all of those is that there are these complementary industries that support each of those divisions, right? Like 3D printing, right? Yeah. Things like that. And so our growth strategy was, so if we're working with a number of architect, architecture firms, why aren't we working with all the interior designers that they're also working with? Why aren't we working with all of their, you know, all of their industrial designers or furniture designers, right? At the same time, you know, we have e-commerce. Why aren't we working with all of their social media managers, all their creative agencies, right? And so that was our, you know, kind of growth strategy is like, we don't just want the niche. We want the complementary industries that are orbiting that niche and servicing that niche. And to your point, that's actually how we get our referrals because creative industry companies, because they're working together, they share like, no, I have a great digital agency. They'll share that across their peers. Well, we got into that sharing conversation too. So they say, you know, who does your bookkeeping? Who does your, you know, who's your CFO? And they create a business. So I think that's a terrific strategy for any firm that's trying to number one, create a niche and then create that sort of flywheel of referrals that, you know, you don't have to niche into like architecture only, like the kind of the broader industry around architecture and let it live there. Right. We don't do taxes, never have a desire to do that because the work that we do is just too much fun. And so the way that we expanded our bench, our advisory bench was pretty intentional. We were already doing a lot of CFO advisory work and we were also doing a lot of HR work for our clients, just kind of within our existing scope. And when we started to notice a pattern that like, you know, more and more of these companies are utilizing a lot of the CFO work. And it was kind of, we kind of were formalizing the service of CFO because the companies we work with aren't enormous and they're not overly complicated. We did have this standard playbook for how we approach CFO advisory. It's a really comprehensive approach to it. So we made the, we, you know, we're always kind of experimenting with our services, but we decided to like separate it out and say, you know what, it's going to be, we're going to offer this kind of a la carte and see if we can make that work. So when we started doing that, it was a little tricky in the beginning, but once we got kind of the messaging around, you know, what we mean by CFO advisory and why it would be useful and how we could sort of layer it into the kind of day-to-day controller work and accounting work we were doing, the team actually, the, you know, the bookkeeping team and the client managers started offering that service right on the front line. So it wasn't, it wasn't even something that was being sold, you know, from the beginning. It was like, you know what, yeah, you want to hire, or you have, you know, your payroll's getting really hot. You know, maybe you should talk to one of our CFOs. People were having, you know, a lot during the pandemic, we had a huge surge for requests in HR services because a lot of people's employees were going remote, they're in multi-states, there was a lot of complexity there. And the, you know, kind of boots on the ground team was saying, why don't you talk to one of our HR consultants? They were selling the service for us. So, so that's kind of how we expanded. And it was, it was surprising to us actually at how, how much appetite there was for those advisory services just in our existing book of business. And then when you take it on the business front and you say, you know, you can, we can work with you just as an outsourced CFO. You don't have to have the back office. You know, that got really interesting too. So, because then eventually you get the back office like that's. Yeah, no, that's cool that it was like very organic, just kind of like based on following demand, being flexible, which, you know, good on you for being flexible. Because I think a lot of people kind of put themselves in a box and they're like, no, this is what I offer. I can't do that. Right. Yeah. Whereas I think just by being in so many businesses and whatnot, you learn to, you know, help them out in every which way. So that's really interesting in terms of, you know, you have to be sure that you're, that you're, you know, just like what a CFO would tell your client, you have to measure like, this is our expectation. We think this is going to be, you know, 20% of our revenue this year. This is going to be like, how do we, you know, how do we know that we're actually doing this properly and we're charging the right amount and all of that. And yeah, so we've kind of built a strategy and we had our assumptions and then we were like constantly like testing our assumptions all the way through. So. Yeah. So in terms of the niche that you have of like serving creative businesses and other businesses in their orbit, like what makes serving these companies unique? Is it like, you know, the timing of cash flows being maybe more sporadic? Is it like even just like the, maybe like the personality of the people that you're usually interfacing with? Or like, what is it that makes this like a good niche where by being focused on the, on, you know, this subset of customers, you're able to do a better job. I think the most common thread is that they are reluctant entrepreneurs. Okay. Interesting. They're amazingly talented. I mean, we're, we're lucky. We work with like, we work with, with companies, with, with owners that are at the top of their industry. So they're all really impressive and brilliant people and wildly creative. They're doing incredible things all around the world. They're speaking, they're, you know, socially active and they're, you know, they're, they're activists, they're, you know, they're innovators. They're, you know, and we get to work with them. So, so that is fantastic. Then you like pull out the curtain and they, they feel like, I can't, I, I never wanted to have a business. I never wanted to be doing, you know, be worried about this stuff. And, and there's a, and I just think this is just the way creatives and art school and, you know, they, they, they don't have the confidence in the financial piece of it that they do on the on the actual product that they're they're making and delivering. And I think being able to support them and to build that confidence is, you know, one of the most fulfilling parts of this job to be like, you're brilliant, and you're going to be brilliant at this too. And we've come up with a way of really sort of telling them like, you know, agreeing that they're brilliant, but also helping them sort of understand and build that financial acumen at through their business and, and, and to be able to demonstrate that to their teams. And, you know, there's, there's a lot of moments when you're talking to people about money, and you're a business owner, and it's uncomfortable, right? It's like owning, owning your number when you're negotiating a contract, right? Like these architects, they're, you know, they're negotiating, and it's a tough negotiation. And, and, you know, they have to, they can't cave, right? They've got to, like, push all the way through, and, and hold on to as much as they can. And I think there's a there's an art to that, actually, right? Like, you don't want the client to say yes, and you want the client to like you, and you want it to be a good working relationship. But at the same time, you know, you need to make what you need to make, right? Yeah. And yeah, owning that number is that like, first kind of, you know, staking that, like first bit of confidence, like, actually, I built this number up. And this is something that CFOs are, are so great at doing for, you know, for owners that do professional services like that. And they have to build this whole, you know, agreement and contract and, and then go and negotiate it. And it's like, you should get them to brick by brick, where that number came from, why, you know, you, you only can negotiate this percent of it. It gives them a ton of confidence going into that conversation where they where they need to land and how they can talk, speak to it. So that, yeah, pricing, pricing is so hard. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, it's yeah, it's very difficult. And I think, again, like, there's like a personality trait. You know, I've had these conversations with a lot of people here, but there's like a certain personality trait of like people who like to really get into like pricing arguments. And like, the overlap of that and like accountants, and probably probably creatives in general, is probably very, very small, like most people really want to stay out of that. So I think that's really important what you're doing. Yeah, that's like a great that's a huge value right there for for anyone doing advisory work, like, you know, and but creatives, especially, they don't, they don't think they're good at numbers. And yeah. When my experience is, you know, once they sort of understand the financial model, and they understand like what the drivers are, and what they should be where they need to really focus their attention. They're fantastic at it. Nice. So something a little bit more about like your role with creative business, but at the beginning, I kind of mentioned, yeah, you're doing creative business and levy at the same time. And you mentioned that you're no longer working in the business. And that's what made that possible. What sort of was required for you to be able to kind of step back from, you know, the more kind of day to day task and now being, you know, what seems more like maybe, like a strategic kind of CEO type role? Are there are there key things that you did that have helped you achieve that along the way? Yes, I mean, I have to say that I being doing being in business for 20 years, there's a lot of things that are on LinkedIn that, you know, there's a lot of things that are easier said than done. And, you know, being in business all these years, and I've literally made every single mistake in the book. So there's a lot of trial and error. And I think that that's okay. I think business owners need to give themselves grace on that. Like, there's a lot of trial and error. Sometimes you just don't know until you know. So that said, yes, I, I was lucky enough to have an incredible team, a team that's been super loyal. I've had people I have people on my team that have been with me for 1516 years. And so they've, they've evolved as I evolved as CEO. And, and over the years, I was able to build a really strong management team. So it kind of gets to the point when you're doing this kind of work that the team becomes a lot better than you are at it. And I think that that's when you recognize, you know, what, actually, they're, they're, they actually know the answer to this better than I do. And I think that's kind of, you know, the last probably five years, it's sort of sort of like kind of stepped back and sort of handed over some decision making areas of the business to the team. So I, I still meet with the management team every week. And I meet with the whole team on Mondays, we have a so I like to be involved. They bring me in on certain client things I have, you know, as needed. I like to meet people that we're hiring. But they actually do all the interviews and the team really, you know, they really know what they're looking for and what skills and how to vet them. So like, as you know, as it became really apparent to me that the this management team is super smart, and they know what they're doing. And they, you know, I just started kind of letting them run with it. And, yeah, so and then they allowed me to kind of step back and focus on Levy, when I was building it, and they were involved in all of the development and the testing, like we're literally creative business was, was, you know, they were my partners in developing the product over the years. So And what's been your strategy to like retain these people for so long? Like, have there been kind of like, key, you know, strategies that you've taken that have allowed you to have these employees who've been there for, you know, 1215 years, and who've been able to kind of take over some of the operations? Well, I mean, I, I really believe that, you know, our philosophy at creative business is like, it has to be good, it has to be good for the client. And it has to be good for the team. Whatever, whether the scope, the type of client that you're matched, it has to be good for both, or it's, it's never going to work. And I think, you know, a mistake that people make, because we've worked with other kind of outsourcing guys, the mistake that people make in with their teams is not actually understanding how to build a portfolio for them of work for them. And, you know, I like to match clients with the interest. So when I when we hire somebody, it's like, what kind of industries? What are you into? Like, are you? Like, are they on Instagram all the time? Do they like, here's our clients, which ones of those are exciting for you. And it's not like they can pick whatever clients they want to work. And it's not what I'm saying. But it's like getting a sense of like, if they're interested in, you know, retail, and they're following every all of our clients on Instagram, that person is going to do have a lot more fun at work. And the clients are going to be really excited to have them on the team. If they're like all over their Instagram and are like, Oh, I saw that campaign that was so good, you know, whereas other people are not, you know, aren't interested in that, but they're interested in, you know, fine arts, or they're interested in travel, or they're interested in, you know, one of the other areas. So, so really understanding, like where the interest lies and trying to build a work life that takes that into account, I think has been a really winning strategy for us. You know, I always say it's, this work is hard. It's really, really hard. And it's if the stakes are high, like you can't make mistakes. And unfortunately, it's not one of those like, everybody makes mistakes. Yeah, not in this business. It's like, even though everybody makes mistakes, but it's really hard. It's hard for the client, but it's really hard for the person who makes mistakes. Yeah, that's a really unique answer to that question. And I really, really like it. Where I worked, there was like, professional athletes, you know, we we I guess, had the clients of one of the I think agencies or something like that. And there's a whole team of people who are just working with professional athletes in my office. And like, I actually like looked at the work when I was working in tax, I looked at the work. And I was like, this looks so bad. Like, it did like it did not seem like particularly fun work. But people were really pumped. Yeah, because they were like, such huge fans of this person that they were working on. And although they couldn't say the names publicly, like that just makes it cool. And they can talk with other people in their teams. So I've seen that firsthand. And like, again, this particular subset of work was like, cross border tax, like, did not seem like fun work, but people were pumped about it just because of who it was for. Right. So I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you've just kind of shared. So yeah, we have a channel on slack. That's our that we post, you know, because our clients are again, they're like, really, you know, incredible people. And we post everybody posts things are in the New York Times, they're in here, they're on TV, here's this thing, you know, all of their they're having a show in this channel. And it's, it's, they're really proud of the, of the clients that they work for, they get to, we have, you know, these, on Wednesday meetings, they get to present a client where they, they talk about the work that they do, they do like a slideshow of, you know, how they're working with the client, but also like who the client is, and, and all the interesting thing they're doing. So I think that's, that's, that's really key for this, this kind of work. I love it. Okay, and one last thing before I let you go, what, what is like the the trigger that firms, particularly firms with a CAS offering should be looking for, where they should consider maybe now it's time for levy? Like it was there like an aha moment, even maybe at your own firm where you realize that what's out there just isn't cutting it, and you need something new? Yeah, well, I think right from the beginning, is if you want to add CAS to your, your offering, you need to think about it in terms of planning the work and making sure everybody that's working on this client actually understands what your firm is doing for this client. You want to make sure that all the information, all the client knowledge gets captured from all the different stakeholders that are working on it, and it's being saved in a place that makes it accessible for all the people that are going to need it, right? What's missing in a lot of the tools is the visibility around the work, the, the client knowledge, the ability to share and communicate in the platform about the work about the client. For us, the, the value add for, you know, for having levy is that we can see that the capacity planning is like really, it really optimizes capacity. And right away, like as soon as you get on levy, you can see like where the time is going, where the budgets are going, how your team is thinking about the work that they're planning for their clients, because you, you have this framework built into levy from the beginning. So you add a client, you add the workflows, and it starts to measure like how much time you're planning for this client versus how much time you're actually are earning, you know, from this client. So, um, and it's because it's totally transparent to everybody that's working on the client, people start to self manage, because when you give people tons of context around their work, and what the expectation is, like, this should take three hours, we think this should take, it's not a right or wrong, it's saying, our assumption going into this engagement puts it in this parameter, it's up to you to tell me that that's not the right, those aren't the right numbers, those aren't the right hours. And at the same time, the team working knows that managers can see what what they're being scheduled for what work is on their plate at any given moment in real time. And, and so they have the comfort knowing that they're being seen, right, that they have, we know what you're doing, we know how much hours you have this week, and we're not going to overschedule you because the other mistake that happens in CAS is that the strongest players on the team, the work just gets piled on to them. Right? Yeah. And they sometimes candy that sometimes those people don't even realize how much more work has been given to them how many hours it's going to take. So, so I think like right from the beginning, if you want to start building a team, and you want to get that team to be confident in your ability to plan and execute on this work, if you've never done so, you need levy, for sure. If you want your team to communicate to you about the clients and where they're at, and what the what's going on with the work, you need levy, this kind of work, you cannot manage it three managers deep, you need to manage it really, really close to where the work is happening. Because that's, that's where everything falls apart. Like, yeah, you can have like, a manager, you know, a manager, and then another manager, and then another man, like, you need, it's got to be very flat, and you and you need a way for people to really keep, keep communicating very close to where the work is at. So awesome. Awesome. Well, I'll be sure to link that in the podcast notes as well. And thank you so much for joining me on the pod. Gene, I really appreciate it's been a long time in the works. I'm happy we finally kind of managed to, to get this on the books. So yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.