Accounting and Digital Marketing for Ecomm with Abir Syed

Hello, and welcome to the Big Four Transparency podcast. I'm joined today by Abir Syed, co-founder of UpCounting, an accounting and business consulting firm in the e-commerce space. Welcome to the pod, Abir. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, yeah, my pleasure. So I've followed you for a very long time on TikTok, where you are, what is it, the Cranky CPA? Yes, Cranky CPA. I've generally tried to keep that pretty private. My TikTok's anonymous. I haven't told anybody in the real world about it. So yeah, it's normally a secret. Do people at your firm not know that you have that? Or have they discovered you? It's funny because they've discovered me haphazardly. I think at one point I got posted on the accounting subreddit. And so then a bunch of people found out about it from there. And then I think some other people actually just organically got my posts. I think I had one recently where I was just shit-talking political science degrees because, I don't know, somebody asked me a question. And so one of our HR people who has a poli-sci degree, she organically got it and then she sends it to me in Slack. She's like, are you talking shit about my degree? I'm like, oh, sorry, man. I didn't realize. So yeah, the secret's leaked. But technically, it's anonymous. That's funny. I love that. So before we get to some of the TikTok stuff, I want to talk about your firm as well. Because again, it's not super obvious from the TikTok things that you also run a firm. You obviously are in the space and all that, but you do keep things pretty separate. But yeah, your firm does a lot more consulting than the typical sort of accounting firm. And you're in the e-comm space specifically. So can you talk to me like what that looks like and why you've leaned so heavily on the consulting side? Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, for me, I guess it's a combination of things. On the one hand, it's that I just happen to have a lot of additional skills beyond accounting alone. So part of it was just like, how do I monetize all these skills? But the other part of it is that philosophically, I was very much a big believer in figuring out how to drive value for the companies we work with. I think most people probably listening to your pod are also on that whole thing. Like how do we drive value with accounting? And I also care about driving value with accounting. But I also realize there's a limit to how much value you can drive with accounting. So I also that's why I focus on a lot of the non-accounting services, because those are the ones who will drive oftentimes more value. And so my kind of vision for the company is a little bit grandiose and that eventually I just want to be able to focus on working with e-commerce brands, specifically providing them with all the information and data and everything, all the support that we can to help them be as successful as possible. Eventually, maybe even reach a point where we can start investing in our clients, where we see that they have a lot of potential and kind of pouring financial as well as human capital resources into them, basically expertise to help them keep on growing. So the vision is quite grandiose, but the foundation of that was ultimately going to be accounting because I'm an accountant and so are my two co-founders. So it started off with that, but we do quite a lot of additional services. So, for example, I also do a lot of digital marketing work for our clients. So I'll be in ad accounts all day. Honestly, I probably spend more time in ad accounts than I do in QBO. So I'll spend a lot of my time doing that type of work just because it's what allows us to drive a lot of value for the companies we work with. And it's all about the value. Yeah, I mean, typically when people get into like the advisory stuff, it's like, you know, virtual CFO is like a very natural transition. You find that like going well beyond that, like doing the digital marketing stuff is very different to me. Like that, that's kind of like a complete different area. And for me, being so deeply ingrained in the accounting space is an absolute black box for me. Do you think that that's like unlocked a lot of growth and a lot of clients who like are really looking for that one stop shop is like a differentiator? It's a great question. So I'd say on the one hand, yes, we do also offer the virtual CFO services. But in particular, for me, it was it was beneficial in two ways. Number one, for myself, when I do virtual CFO services or like when I work with a client, the fact that I understand the actual revenue drivers so intimately allows me to provide a lot better service. A lot of other people who are, I don't know, CFO types will look at it and say, like, hey, you're advertising, make sure revenue go up. And sure. Yeah, that's how it works, especially in e-commerce. Like the relationship between how much you spend on marketing and how much your revenue fluctuates is very, very strongly correlated, like more than any other industry I can think of. But the thing is, they don't actually understand how the ads work. They don't have that very intimate understanding of how it works. How do you actually scale it? What levels do you get diminishing returns at? How does it affect new customer revenue versus returning customer revenue? Like there's a lot of depth to that, that if you don't fully understand it, there's a limit to how much value you can provide. So the way I always present it is that most e-commerce brand founders are in a position where they are product people. Sometimes they're kind of marketing people, but mostly they're product people. And they have a great product. They want to be able to scale that. And they're a lot of times first time entrepreneurs. So they're kind of learning how to do business stuff as they go. And a lot of times they're not hyper sophisticated when it comes to the accounting and finance world. And they might be relatively sophisticated on the marketing side, but oftentimes not superstars there either. So they'll be in a position where the two most frequently outsourced functions for these companies are going to be marketing and accounting. And oftentimes they'll be working with an accounting firm and a marketing agency, both of who have very different perspectives on the business. Both of who will be giving them very different advice, both of whom don't understand each other at all. Marketing agencies don't understand margins. They don't understand cash flow. They don't understand inventory or supply chain. They don't understand cogs. And the accounting side has no idea. Like it's not uncommon for an accountant to go to an e-commerce brand like, Hey, your expenses are very high on this advertising line over here. Maybe we should kind of cool that off. It's like, yeah, you're just killing the company. So the founders in a situation where they're kind of hearing information from both of these sources that have their very own perspective, and then they have to synthesize strategy and kind of understand how to evaluate all the information they're hearing. Whereas if I'm putting myself in a position where I have both of those sides of information and then I can help them size strategy, I feel like I can just do a much better job. On the one hand, for me personally, I think it significantly expands on the value that I can derive from a fractional CFO perspective that I have such a very strong understanding of the advertising side, like the kind that would rival full time marketers. And at the same time, from the perspective of the fact that clients who come to us who aren't necessarily happy with the quality of the work that they've gotten from other people, we're able to kind of provide that to them while still retaining that same philosophy of profitable growth driven by people who understand your profits, your cash flows, your cogs, your break even row as all that stuff. So even philosophically it's a lot more aligned with how they want to run their business in a lot of cases. So yes, it has worked pretty well so far. That's cool. I love that. And that being such a rare crossover, like are you getting a lot of your kind of client leads and whatnot to grow your own firm through those channels? Or are you kind of using more maybe the traditional accounting channels of, you know, just like relationship building and like going through maybe, you know, the, the softwares that you use, there's some, some ways that you can kind of land clients through that. Um, so you mean in so far as like getting leads for the, for our company itself? Yeah. I'd say it's a bit of a mix in that, uh, our tax department probably does everything the traditional way. Like that's my, my tax partner. Uh, probably the most sociable individual I've ever met. Like he's the kind of guy goes to restaurants, buys people drinks, makes friends and then everybody throws money at him. He's very good at that. Uh, but I, for, for the rest of the business, like the non-tax portions, all the other services, the accounting, the marketing, all that stuff, the QBO stuff, uh, all of that is through the more, it's called digital or, uh, yeah, digital marketing stuff. So it's all the content, it's Google ads, it's Facebook ads, lead magnets, outbound. It's, it's all the stuff that, uh, is very uncommon to see in accounting firms. Okay. That's interesting. And then I assume that probably translates very well to like cross-selling across your different service lines, right? Like I, I imagine that's one of the huge benefits for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're not pushing about it by any means. Like if a brand's working with us and they're happy with who they have, then we're very happy about that. So we certainly don't push, but yeah, of course. But when they ask about it, we're like, yeah, of course we can help them. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so your firm wasn't always like that, right? So it sounds like you had started it and then within about a year you took on kind of like partners to your firm to handle sort of the tax side and some of the other sides of it. What does that look like? Taking on partners like a year in, like, how do you, you know, negotiate terms? How do you kind of like merge what you're all doing together? Yeah, it's a good question. I'll say that it was a little bit easier for us because of the fact that we were old friends. Uh, so the three of us actually started same day EY like ages ago. So we've all known each other for a long time. Uh, so like that kind of that friendship is what made it like a very smooth sort of thing. We're just like, all right, we're just gonna merge up. It doesn't matter who much, who has how much revenue. We're just gonna split it thirds. We're good. That's it. So it's very, very simple from that perspective. And like, obviously we have our rocky periods when we argue about stuff, but we get along great. And that's what kind of made it easy. And so far as the slightly more logistic side of it, I probably started the first, if you will, because when I left the company that I was working for, uh, the startup in Texas and I moved back to be closer to my family because I had some health issues I had to help with. Um, that's when I kind of had the opportunity to dabble in entrepreneurship a little bit, just because the fact that I had that on track with a company because I left abruptly, they're like, they couldn't just drop what I was doing for them immediately. So I had this little window of time where I could actually try doing something entrepreneurial. So during that time frame, I actually went through different like iterations of business models. I was like, I was thinking about just building an agency. Uh, I was thinking about doing maybe marketing services for accounting firms. And I did try that for a little while until I tried to sell it to an accountant. I'm like, wow, accounts really don't like marketing services. So this is horrible. Uh, I'm like, okay, I could build my own accounting firm. And it's funny because I'm good at the marketing stuff. When I built the accounting firm, uh, I, within a couple of months, I think I was like, I did the SEO and I was like ranking page one in Montreal. I was able to get, and I think the first lead came in, uh, and I have a call with him and he's like, Oh, yeah, what about the taxes? I'm like, Ooh, the taxes. So immediately I'm like, the only way I'm ever doing the accounting firm stuff is I have somebody else do the taxes cause there's no way I'm touching that. Um, so then just because I'd moved back to Canada, I kind of asked the guy, one of my, my co-founders. Now, uh, I reached out to him, caught up with him. I'm like, Hey, you know, um, you need some just tax advice essentially. And he was telling me that he was about to leave the firm that he was at as well. Actually, I think they were trying to buy the firm and then that kind of deal fell through. So they're like, okay, we're going to leave. So then I pitched him on this whole vision that I had, which is what we have today. Uh, and he's like, all right, cool. Let me get through busy season. Let's talk about it again. All right, cool. So again, along the way, they're kind of building up their own accounting practice cause it was actually the two of them together. Uh, and I was building up marketing clients and a little bit of accounting and just like, I don't know, a mishmash of stuff. I was just essentially freelancing with what skills I had and making money with it. I could. So then when we came together, we slowly turned that into something a little bit more structured over time. And then prior to that, you were a VP of finance at like a startup that had raised a good amount of money and all that. Um, do you think that that experience really has made you a lot better as like, you know, a firm leader who's now kind of serving the other side? Oh my God. Yeah. Like it's, yeah, I credit 90% of my skills and learnings prior to starting this company to my experience at the startup, not any of the big four stuff. Like that's all a waste of time. Um, like everything I know about like running a company and stuff is a lot of that is based on kind of the time in the startup because a part of it was just, you know, being exposed to a lot of different ways to run a company, how to do things operationally with HR, uh, like just project management. There's a lot of things that I learned not only at the company, but just being exposed to that environment because I was, you know, watching a lot of videos and reading a lot of books all about the startup world. So it was just the consumption of information was a very different context. Being in a position also while I was in industry and focusing a lot more on building accounting processes that were intended to very specifically drive value for the users of the financial data, uh, also informed how I learned to think about accounting and finance and stuff like that. So it's almost a lot more about being pragmatic to help make better decisions and taking into consideration the cost of like putting that data together rather than being very rigid, like you're writing an accounting exam in audit or something like that. So even philosophically, that kind of affected a lot about how I look at things. And at the same time, while I was there, then my, it's my responsibilities evolved quite a lot such that at a certain point I wasn't really doing the finance work anymore. Uh, but I was actually running the e-commerce brand that we bought. So then I just started learning essentially an entire two more careers worth of, of, of skills. So that, that kind of like expansion of my horizons was enormous. Uh, so like going there was incredibly valuable for my career. Yeah. Yeah. I find when like a lot of people are really scared to like make the jump, right. If they're in public accounting and they're like, this might be good, you know, to stay in because like later down the road, that's where the benefits are. It's not at the beginning of your career very much. So, and um, a lot of people are kind of scared to venture out and explore because you know, the fear of loss is far greater than kind of the benefits of gain. And like my counter to that is always like, I, you know, I got offers to boomerang back like as soon as I left basically. And I think that after a couple of years out of it, I would have been like way, way better if I had gone back because I now have the context of like, Oh, this is the client side of things. This is like how they feel, what they're dealing with, what their pressures are. And so like, I think gaining that understanding too can make you a tremendous like public accountant on the other side because you're now empathetic to all of their problems and you understand like what the operations are and stuff like that. No, you're absolutely right on the one hand. Yes, I completely agree with you. It's funny because accountants, I guess just by virtue of their personality seem to be incredibly risk averse. And I had that moment too. I'm like, Oh, you know, should I leave this stable job or big four or whatever, except that it occurred to me, I'm like, I have recruiters reaching out to me. Every day offering me jobs that I'm not interested in. So clearly it's not that hard to get a job. So why not take a risk? What's the worst case scenario? I'll come back and if I absolutely have to, I'll just boomerang to pick four and they'll take me. Uh, so like to me, the, what it means is that you should actually be a lot more willing to take risks, except most people don't look at it that way. But to your second point, I completely agree. I kind of prefer hiring people who have had industry experience because the perspective of being an industry and understanding, okay, the needs for this information and what value it actually drives for a user and how it actually like comes into something that matters. And then also being a little bit more intimately familiar with like the actual business transactions or operations that give rise to the accounting data. Uh, but still play some much better pro like perspective on things versus the life for public. So like the people who have been in public accounting their entire lives, they have a very, in my opinion, like it's just a much more limited view of or understanding what's actually happening in a business because they look at it like a lot more, I don't know, theoretically. And um, oftentimes just don't know how to bridge certain gaps. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I like, yeah, the, the thought of doing both and then making your choice and you know, there was this whole narrative for a while of like, Oh yeah, industry is always better. And I don't agree with that either. Like having spent the last kind of three years in an industry job, like there's a whole, and I'm actually writing a piece on this right now, but like there's a whole issue on like this is your first time as a cost center, right? Like you just went from a profit center to a cost center. And that has a lot of trappings with it too, that are a little bit surprising and like can feel like it's stunted career growth compared to when you're the source of revenue. Right. And so, and, and that's where it's cool. Like being kind of like on the marketing side too, where you manage to evolve into maybe more than just a cost center at your last job. Um, but yeah, no, I find that perspective is very useful no matter where you end up. Right. Like having been in public, being in industry is also great because you like benefited from all those resources for all those years too. So, um, yeah. So you were an audit beforehand. A lot of people that I see end up kind of like starting firms kind of came up in tax and like, or like, Oh, thank God I did tax instead of audit. Yeah. Um, do you kind of like regret that at all going the audit side or do you think that that was helpful as a background for you where you are now? And then also, do you think you left at like the right level experience where you left as a manager? Question. Um, so I would say that for most firm owners, if anybody wants to build a firm, I would agree that that's the advice I'd give them go into tax because that's the thing that's going to be most, uh, enabling for you to build a firm in my own, for me personally, I ate tax. I don't find it interesting at all. Uh, but B because of the fact that I specifically like to add value to companies, specifically in companies, like from, from a perspective of business, I like business building. I think tax people obviously add value, but a lot of it comes down to just like, okay, well, here's the money you made in the company. How do I avoid, you know, too much are going to the government simplifying obviously. Uh, but I actually like the aspect of being very deeply embedded in the bill in the business itself and figuring out how to help it grow. I think being able to enable that sort of experience pathway as much as I think audit is a complete waste of time. I think it does a decent job of at least opening the doors necessary to jump into industry, to do those things. And then learning all that. I think the fact that nowadays maybe it's a little bit more common to have this kind of like, I think most people call it Kaz, even though I hate the name, but you know, magic accounting services is what I call it. Uh, but basically being able to provide the virtual CEO of CFO services, uh, the controllership, all that kind of stuff. I think doing that from public after having gone through industry is a lot easier if you have the audit route opened to you rather than the tax route. Uh, in my experience, the tax people oftentimes are very stuck on their perspective of like just focusing on the post profit side of things. So their understanding of what actually goes on in the business itself is a little bit more limited. Obviously there are some accounts who can do pretty good attacks and pretty good at intra business sort of transactional stuff. Uh, but to me that's kind of neither here nor there. Focus on one or focus on the other. And they're, they're kind of disconnected specialties from my perspective. As far as how long I waited, probably too long. I mean, the only benefit of me staying till manager is that I have the word manager on my resume. Legit. I think that's the only benefit. Uh, I wish I'd left at senior because when I went to the startup, I was the only person there who knew anything about accounting and finance. So the entire, and there was, it was a, you know, a fairly, it was a few years old to start up, but it had like no real accounting or finance infrastructure. And I had to do a lot in terms of like financial modeling, a lot of building stuff I've implemented in the RP. I had to roll out a whole budgeting process, all like the actual processes for us to like have our accounting done. Like when I showed up and I looked at the QBO, they had like some part time bookkeeper doing it. It was like all wrong. Um, so all of that, just building an actual function from scratch was very difficult to do given I had no actual internal company experience ever before. Uh, and nobody else at the company to ask any questions of like I was the expert and all I had was my audit experience. Um, so I managed cause I'm, I guess good at figuring stuff out, but it would have been a lot better slash easier had I spent maybe a couple of years in industry left as a senior on a little bit of experience in the industry and then done that rather than waiting until I was a manager getting diminishing returns on my experience other than learning all the checklist names. Mm hmm. Yeah. And then from that, like startup experience where we were talking before here, you mentioned that you still try to kind of run your practice like it's a startup rather than a lot of the kind of typical accounting things. And you know, we talked about how that extends to like some of the software choices where you're not maybe on like a practice management tool. It's a lot of kind of picking your own tools and maybe like building integrations and stuff. Are there any other areas, uh, where you think that it's like really benefited you to try and run this more as a startup rather than like an accounting firm? I think maybe the simplest way to put it is just a very philosophical way of doing things. I think startups on the one hand have a tendency towards focusing on testing out new things, like trying out things that aren't necessarily quite as common and their ecosystem of like new ideas and information are very different. Like it's a lot of cutting edge concepts and stuff in terms of like management practices, hiring approaches, technology that you can use. So I think just focusing on that world and that way of thinking is what has allowed us to build kind of from the ground up or from a first principle basis, a firm that's very different than a lot of the other ones. I think the problem with living in the accounting firm world is that then you're exposed to a lot of accounting firm ideas and mostly I don't like what I see. Uh, and so to my mind, I don't really care what other accounting firms do because no, I know how the majority of accounting firms are, uh, which I completely disagree with. And then I know that there are some that are a little bit better, but they are kind of still the people who are able to kind of break away from the pack rather than from my vantage point. Like I'm just, I came from like, I never wanted to go back to an accounting firm world. The only reason I did it is because I had the opportunity. But to me, I love being in a startup. I like the way it runs. So it's more of a philosophical, cultural approach than manifests in certain ways. Like the technology we choose and the way we do our hiring, the way we structure our teams, the way we do kind of project management. Uh, but it's not like strictly one or two pieces that I'm taking about. It's more just the approach and the way that you think about things. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's interesting. And I've had this conversation with some people who are like non CPAs who run firms. So like Patrick Dichter, for example, who like buys firms and is a non CPA. And I kind of asked that I was like, is that, is that like really hard to do? And he's like, yes and no. Where like, yeah, like you, you get to approach things very differently, which can be super beneficial sometimes. But then also sometimes it's like, Oh my God, I've been, you know, hitting my head against the wall. And there's like this very clear out of the box solution that everyone uses. That's actually good. Um, but it is cool to like bring the different perspective. Cause you know, as far as I'm concerned, like the more different flavors there are in an industry, like the better, because again, employees who are a certain way, hopefully can gravitate towards, you know, a firm where they're going to be more suited and same for the clients and all of that. So, um, yeah, no, I always find that interesting when people try to like run things, not as an accounting firm for sure. Yeah. I'm almost like almost contrary. And like if I see other firms doing it, I'm like, well, I'm specifically not going to do it that way then. Uh, so at the very least, it, it kind of pushes me to think of new ideas rather than just kind of leaning on, uh, conventional wisdom. Okay. Interesting. And then speaking of things that you do differently, so circling back to the whole Tik Tok thing, um, how, like, I mean, first of all, like what drove you to start kind of making all the Tik Toks? Great question. Uh, I'd say it was maybe two things. The first one was that, uh, like I mentioned, I do a lot of marketing stuff, uh, for companies that I work with. So to a certain extent, it was just the thought that like, if I have to talk a lot about these platforms and like, I understand them theoretically how they work and I can run ads on them and stuff like that, but I feel like I'm missing something if I, if I haven't like really experienced it. Uh, cause I personally am not a social media guy by any means. Like if you look at my Instagram account, like my personal Instagram, 10 years is zero posts. Like I don't post at all. Like I don't care. I don't like attention. I don't like putting myself out there. I don't like going on social media. Like I find the whole thing fringy. Uh, but I was like, I kind of need to do this. I think it's, it would mean make me better at my job. I'd be a little bit more genuinely knowledgeable. So I should. So part of, part of it was that. And the second part is that I also knew that, uh, there was an opportunity to be able to kind of build our firm through these kinds of marketing channels that included like good content and personal branding. Cause I knew there was an opportunity. I know it's a general good practice for a lot of different businesses, but in particular in our industry, there was kind of not much competition either. So it was especially worthwhile to do. Um, and between the three co-founders, like I'm the one guy who would probably be the most likely to do it. So it's sort of that as well. Like I just need to be a lot better about being on social media because that's how we're going to get our clients too. Uh, or just continue to build our business. So I need to figure out how to build a personal brand. So part of that was the other motivation too. Okay. Interesting. And has that made like hiring a lot easier for you or like very like distinct kind of like changes in your business? Cause I mean, you have a big following of accountants now, and this is kind of the new generation who's coming up who, you know, the old model doesn't necessarily work for. So seeing this person speaking out about the old model and wanting to do things differently, like to me, it seems like it'd be a great kind of talent, you know, lure. In theory, you're absolutely right. Uh, I think I made the mistake of like not really having a strategy for the TikTok. I just like started yapping about like whatever was the easiest and the first thing that popped into my head. And then I would just answer questions. Like that was always the easiest thing. Cause I, at one point gave myself this challenge of posting every single day. Uh, so a lot of times when I don't have any ideas, I just answer a question. Uh, and so that kind of created the strategy for me rather than me being intentional about it. So yes, in theory, because I have such a big audience of accounts, I should be able to use it better for hiring. But the problem I think is that I also keep it completely anonymous. So I've never actually tried to do anything useful with it. So it's funny. My Twitter account is like 10% the size, but it's brought us like multiple six figures and revenue because that's properly strategically built and done. My TikTok is just, again, at this point, it's just me seeing how long I can do a daily post. And so, uh, I haven't figured out how or tried to actually extract value from it, but I agree with you in theory, that would be the right way to go about it. Cause yeah, mostly accountants. Yeah. Well, and also for lead gen, right? Like everyone who's doing e-commerce is, is on TikTok, right? Like they're all like TikTok shops, the new thing until maybe January 19th. We'll see. Exactly. Um, but like, yeah, it seems like it would be a huge lure and I'm always curious of like, okay, like what platforms are having what effect for people? Because like for me too, like, you know, Twitter, I have a very, very small following, but like I've gotten huge opportunities actually through it. Whereas like, yeah, some other places where like I probably have a much larger following, you know, like Reddit, for example, uh, which is like where big four transparency lives, like has really led to very limited, uh, opportunities other than people actually using the, you know, the comp resource that I have and submitting their, their data and all that. But, um, it has not led to business opportunities whatsoever. So I'm, I'm always like, okay, like what platforms are good for what? Um, so yeah, that's cool. Twitter is surprisingly good. I'd figure for you, LinkedIn would probably be great and I need to get on LinkedIn. Like I've been bad about it. Um, but I, I, I think TikTok would have had a lot more value if I had been more thoughtful about it. Uh, but unfortunately I think it's one of those things, but like for the past several years, like I've been the only guy doing like the real digital marketing for our company. Uh, and oftentimes it comes down to how much spare time do I have? So a lot of it is just the minimum amount of effort for the biggest bang for my buck. Uh, whereas I only recently hired a full-time person to work on marketing and like, so. 2025, I'm very excited because like, there's a lot of things and ideas that I've had forever that I've wanted to do that I just never have the time to do is have a person focusing on. I think it'll be a lot better. So, um, I think the goal is to get more value out of that account. But for now, yes, my biggest social profile, biggest following a lot of engagement, doing nothing with it is still anonymous. Okay, well, I mean, it's it's cool to hear, right? Again, there's so many like blanket statements of like, oh, you need to be on TikTok, you need to be on this, you need to be on that. And it can be super overwhelming. And right, like with me moving full time to Big 4 Transparency, it's like, oh, great, I'm going to tackle every platform. And like, that's just not really either. Right. And you have to be a little bit strategic. So even for myself, like, it's good to know that like, yeah, TikTok has not necessarily been like the business driver. Yet, although who knows, maybe that'll compound in a big way at some point. Yeah, a lot of people talk about but yeah, well, thank you so much for for joining. I really appreciate you taking the time to join me on the pod. And I'll continue to watch your TikTok. So make sure that I link that as well for people who are kind of, you know, looking for someone else in the accounting space talking about the accounting space to meet you where you're at if you're if you're kind of one of those people who scroll in there. But yeah, thank you so much for joining. First, thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. Appreciate it. Transcribed by https://otter.ai